Bring Back Kaiten

[Damokl]

Patch 6.4 dropped not so long ago and still kaitenless

Although i started playing quite recently, just the last august, my main goal was to get samurai asap and i quite did. Thus being stated it becomes clear that im unfamiliar with kaiten gameplay and havent been aware of its once presence until this march when i found out that it was actually a thing and the thing was big. That made me wonder why its been removed and after record-short terms of searching i figured out that its far from me being the only one who was wondering. Long story short i've recently read this and another one thread over the last day and man do RyuuZero loves drg and therefore most of skill merge counterarguments was about "it would be the same as those 2 skills that we already have on another job". Some might agree some might disagree but as i read further i came to a simple yet quite effective solution on button bloat which also would solve the same mumbling about accessibility issues.

So. Lets look truth in the eye. If ones would really be concerned about reducing button bloat and keeping variability at the same time (ST/aoe (especially for sam as its the main topic here)) we would get a "One Button To Rule Them All".
BEHOLD! THE STANCE SKILL! Specifically oGCD ST/AoE stance swapper with nearly no cooldown (something close to thm element changer). This little guy should appear as soon as you get ur first aoe weaponskill (which then would be considered as a trait for specific weaponskill). And as it comes from said above this button simply changes your ST skills to their AoE counterparts which are now also "*cannot be assigned to a hotbar".

With this solution we actually merge skills but instead of losing variability "because now everything is aoe wtf" we now have one or another for a single button that does about the same thing but mostly with different potency, therefore one button = 2 weaponskills which empties like a dozen of buttons (actually only 6 if im correct about it) leaving some place to put this stance skill, bring back KAITEN and drop any other new things they will want to throw into us (that are not like lets say ST ogi since its gonna be swapping with current namikiri back and forth). And GCD oGCD wont be a problem since nearly all of them share their cooldowns with their counterparts.

[Deo14]

So. Lets look truth in the eye. If ones would really be concerned about reducing button bloat and keeping variability at the same time (ST/aoe (especially for sam as its the main topic here)) we would get a "One Button To Rule Them All".
BEHOLD! THE STANCE SKILL! Specifically oGCD ST/AoE stance swapper with nearly no cooldown (something close to thm element changer). This little guy should appear as soon as you get ur first aoe weaponskill (which then would be considered as a trait for specific weaponskill). And as it comes from said above this button simply changes your ST skills to their AoE counterparts which are now also "*cannot be assigned to a hotbar".

With this solution we actually merge skills but instead of losing variability "because now everything is aoe wtf" we now have one or another for a single button that does about the same thing but mostly with different potency, therefore one button = 2 weaponskills which empties like a dozen of buttons (actually only 6 if im correct about it) leaving some place to put this stance skill, bring back KAITEN and drop any other new things they will want to throw into us (that are not like lets say ST ogi since its gonna be swapping with current namikiri back and forth). And GCD oGCD wont be a problem since nearly all of them share their cooldowns with their counterparts.

I've actually started using this AoE/ST stance few weeks ago and it is really good for some jobs. The way I implemented it is pretty annoying to set up, but it would definitely be worth it if devs made simple, native ST/AoE switch button, obviously not mandatory, but for those who want it. But IF there really was button bloat problem, then I'm afraid this wouldn't fully solve it.

I use this setup for most of my DPS, but for tanks and healers I don't, since it becomes more complicated, because there is more abilities that are neither ST or AoE exclusive.

Healers have ST damage/AoE damage (granted, these 2 categories are just 3 buttons, but still) and then bunch of AoE and bunch of ST heals, so you have 4 main categories and bunch of skills that don't fit any of them on top of that. Maybe you could have DPS skills on both layouts, where AoE layout will have only AoE heals and so on. But then you would need to swap layouts mid fight, which is not the way I use them.

Tanks on the other hand, have bunch of mitigation and other utilities which you need to have available at all times. I've looked at my PLD, and even though I could make these layouts, I would still need extra hotbar for all the mitigations. So it really feels like it's mainly DPS that benefit from this.

To give better idea, here are my SAM's hotbars:



So for SAM, I've saved 6 buttons. Theoretically, I could maybe put some other skills to the 3 empty slots in my AoE layout, but then I would need to be swapping layouts mid fight, which I really don't want. This way, I just swap layouts in dungeons, whenever I fight trash or boss.

While this is certainly good idea, it has some limitation (but possible upsides definitely outweight them). For example, MNK has Meditation which turns into forbidden chakra (ST oGCD) when you have enough stacks, but Enlightment, which is AoE counterpart, doesn't have the meditation part. So in AoE layout, I need to keep both meditation (which turns into ST oGCD) and AoE oGCD. But of course, if they really natively implemented this, I'm sure that these things could be easily fixed.

[Damokl]

I use this setup for most of my DPS, but for tanks and healers I don't, since it becomes more complicated, because there is more abilities that are neither ST or AoE exclusive.

Healers have ST damage/AoE damage (granted, these 2 categories are just 3 buttons, but still) and then bunch of AoE and bunch of ST heals, so you have 4 main categories and bunch of skills that don't fit any of them on top of that. Maybe you could have DPS skills on both layouts, where AoE layout will have only AoE heals and so on. But then you would need to swap layouts mid fight, which is not the way I use them.

Tanks on the other hand, have bunch of mitigation and other utilities which you need to have available at all times. I've looked at my PLD, and even though I could make these layouts, I would still need extra hotbar for all the mitigations. So it really feels like it's mainly DPS that benefit from this.

While this is certainly good idea, it has some limitation (but possible upsides definitely outweight them). For example, MNK has Meditation which turns into forbidden chakra (ST oGCD) when you have enough stacks, but Enlightment, which is AoE counterpart, doesn't have the meditation part.

Yeah i wanted to mention about exceptions but seems that i forgot, i suppose utility abilities and spells should remain as they are. But for healers this scheme for sure would be quite harder to do

[CelestiCer]

I've actually started using this AoE/ST stance few weeks ago and it is really good for some jobs.

Your post reminds me of the " Samurai Stance " idea I brought up to go to the far extreme to save up to 6 buttons, theoretically speaking though. Post was " Here " <- I doubt even if Square compresses skill-kits in this manner? that they would provide more nuances and depth to each Job as they have been making Job dumber.

I just want Kaiten back... I'm not even asking for a new expansion/buff/beast-tribe/haircut/glamour/new-race/Ultimates/Extra-Raids/better story, You have people on the General Forums asking for a Fat-slider and for characters to be able to get pregnant with probably like a " give-birth-emote ". Meanwhile me right... asking for the bare minimum of something that already existed to return... just Kaiten, I swear to god I'm literally asking for just 1 button how is that to much to ask?

it apparently is to much to ask yes... it just is...

[jrollins89]

"Whaaat? Having trouble hearing you! 'Bring back Dismantle'!? You want Dismantle back? Ok sure we can bring Dismantle back!"

I'm sure that this is along the lines of what happened. On behalf of Machinists everywhere, we thank the Samurai community for inadvertently advocating on our behalf.

[RyuuZero]

well I also played some other Jobs and realized Samurai is just like White Mage.
Samurai spams Shinten, White Mage spams Glare.
Since my Main is on Cerberus I decided to get through DRS and get that Cerberus Mount, thus I yanked that Unusable Kaiten Button off from my active interface (since I play on Controller) so Kaiten yanked and hello True North, that I can use with Meikyo Shisui (which I also had as macro but the Meikyo Charge fucked that macro.. thx SE). Then only the ranged Spot was free, well playing through it as DNC then and got the Mount! I reduced my Aspectations to at least my Character looks Good and that carries me through a FFXIV Session alongside Loporrits and maybe playing Alts. I'm not so bewildered about the PLD rework but Goring Blade is kind of a waste now in feels. I also checked out SMN.. lol plays like a Pre-released Overwatch Character.. Though I attended a GameJam and got asked how I would the Kaiten Playstyle translate in an 2D enviroment and I worked out a plan within the bounds of my abilities for that. I also wrote stuff to better articulate why the Kaiten Removal is Bad. I wrote a script parody and even got to a content creator with it. 7.0 will be a Make or Break Expansion since the Bore has Spread noticiply with less things to enjoy by the day.

[Damokl]

Instead what is he saying can easily be applied to dancers who have the required fluidity for weaving ST and AoE skills back and forth alltogether and separately (and which in fact i enjoy a lot) thus they have that mentioned previously variability to make decisions for the second half of basic rotations (ST3/AoE3+ST4/AoE4 and fan and the order depends on that 50% chance of getting required buffs GCD1 for GCD3 and GCD2 for GCD4) and at this moment im confusing even myself so endure or just skip this part. We samurais dont have that option, the only connection between our ST and AoE rotation is iaijutsu
I also found this 2017 guide which is still absolutely relatable except kaiten (and hagakure for me specifically)


Long story short every job so far ive seen by now has in total 26 job-specific assignable buttons be they skills, spells or abilities so not so many jobs would benefit from such stance concept and the least beneficial would be healers i suppose? And now that i give it a second thought the only idea of adding a button that lowers that number by 1/3 for 1-3-5 jobs out of all of them is unbalanced on its own. But dreamers do be dreaming am i right? Moreover its not like it is actually unbalancing potency-wise, just less buttons for some of them and the only real unbalance it would make is accessibility and its not that i blame people who cant do this and that due to buttons layout or any other accessibility reasons, me myself is not a pianist. I unlocked sage, assigned buttons, looked at those again and said hell nah, i leveled thm and unlocked blackmage, i looked at the job traits window and said hell nah not even trying to assign them, not my jobs, imma stickin to sam and dnc, slashin n spinnin

Also i have not a single damn idea about what his "That Stance thing sounds like Sage to me tbh" in that thread is even supposed to mean and if he was talking about [Eukrasia] then its completely different and unrelated thing and moreover its literally just a buff (IS THIS A KAITEN REFERENCE?!)

[Tizzy_Tormentor]

Nah man, we need to consolidate buttons by removing Kaiten, there's no other way...

What? Combine Iaijutsu and Tsubame-Gaeshi? Are you mad? Combine Ikishoten and Ogi-Namakiri? That'll never work, anyway, we're keeping Senei, which is completely redundant and only exists to pretend Samarai gets a new skill at 72 instead of just upping Guren's potency with more drop-off or separating their cooldowns.

[Damokl]

Also another workaround would be if they added prerequisite cone attack with like 50-100 potency to all those aoe/st skills which then would determine if skill gets more potency and deal bigger big numbers to one enemy or it would do its average big numbers but with drop-off for more enemies. (JuSt LiKe NaMiKiRi In ThE pVp MoDe tho it has no prerequisites, just hit n go, one enemy? huge number, many enemies? big number)

[CelestiCer]

The biggest offender to me is that it's supposed to be replaced with Something. That's why they removed Kaiten, or should be the reason since it didn't solve the non-existing Button Bloat issue. Where is this improved gameplay everyone seems to not mention? all these " it was just button bloat " posters? " it's a button you press every time " one-liners, like where is this improved gameplay then? Cause I don't see it. I see a whole lot of Shinten Spamming and not much of anything else.