Bring Back Kaiten

[Sylvain]

Personally my biggest issue with Kaiten removal is that only Shinten is left as a Kenki spender.
I didn't mind Kaiten removal in itself, but being left with Shinten spam was an issue to me because Kaiten was the more interesting of the two.
Shinten spam requires little thought whereas Kaiten spam (if Shinten would have been removed instead) would have been more interesting as you'd have had a priority of boostable skill.
It could have also been possible to tie it to new trait.
Like, if you Kaiten each 3 of the sticker generator you'd get a super midare.(random idea).
But there's nothing to do with Shinten.

The same goes for WAR (with upheavel rage cost removal), DRK, DNC and even SCH when it comes to ressource management.
If a ressource is solely only used for a single skill that has no specific interaction with the kit, then it falls flat and becomes uninteresting.

There need to be friction with the ressource use. there need to be a reason for you to hold on it or not (beside having a full bar every 2mins), so basically, a need for ressource management.

It's not an issue of caring, it's an issue of trying to shuffle these people through the content they do. A random nerd off the streets of uldah probably doesn't really understand how potency or math works and kaiten was a stumbling block for these people. They either weren't using kaiten at all, which was a problem, or they would use it wrong, which is just as much of a problem. Do these bad sams care about this? No, they aren't aware it's a problem. Do I care about this? Yes, there's a reason that samurais were the butt of bad dps jokes forever. Kaiten (and tsubame) are why.

That's a very fair and valid point and most likely the reason for its removal.
But then, why not simply make it simplier in understanding?
Why not simply make that Kaiten makes your next skill a crit+dh and double DoT duration.
This way there's no way a bad player doesn't understand. Crit > no crit, DH > no direct hit, 60s DoT > 30s DoT.

In term of gameplay, you still keep it and you make it really clear onto why it should be used on your biggest skills.

Despite being the easiest and most straightforward job to play, Summoner somehow has the most variation in DPS scores among every job in savage. Like, that lower bound is absolutely appalling. It's Summoner. How are people messing up this badly?

Oh lord... I can understand BLM because it's rather easy to mess up your rotation and loose enochian when you start. But SMN... like you litterally have to only think of "where do I put ifrit" every minute. And even if you miss that, loosing 2 ifrit gcd wouldn't make you do that low of a DPS. Just how...

[Silhart]

Oh lord... I can understand BLM because it's rather easy to mess up your rotation and loose enochian when you start. But SMN... like you litterally have to only think of "where do I put ifrit" every minute. And even if you miss that, loosing 2 ifrit gcd wouldn't make you do that low of a DPS. Just how...

For what it's worth: those statistics are scuffed beyond belief, I had to check again to see whether I had made a mistake. It turns out FFLogs defaults to showing the logs between 6.5 and whatever patch introduced Echo, so the number of SMN logs uploaded for that time period is less than N=500. I'd take the data in my initial post with a massive grain of salt. 6.4 and Echo have a much larger sample size of SMN logs (we're talking thousands) and show a more normal-looking distribution.
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I have nothing further to add to the Kaiten discussion, other than the fact that it was the entire reason I made this forum account in years ago. Years later, I still miss it. I don't think we're going to get it back, but I wish some parts of FFXIV's community would start asking for IMPROVEMENTS on job elements that don't meet their standards, rather than demanding their removal.

"Oh, Kaiten didn't require any thought". You know what? That's a valid point, but that doesn't mean it needed to be removed. If people perceive this to be a problem, why not advocate for ways to improve it? I'm echoing someone else's idea from years back, but Kaiten could have served a dual purpose in buffing Iaijutsu AND enabling filler GCDs by preventing SAM's next GCD from generating Sen (also buffing its damage by an appropriate amount to compensate). This way, Kaiten would require a bit more thought because it now also plays a role in keeping your 2 minute burst aligned. For people who took issue with Kaiten, I have every confidence that you're creative thinkers and are capable of coming up with something that addresses your grievances without screwing over the people who liked Kaiten for what it was. Because face it, if we removed every job action that didn't require any thought, the game as we know it would cease to exist.

[Sjol]

but I wish some parts of FFXIV's community would start asking for IMPROVEMENTS on job elements that don't meet their standards, rather than demanding their removal.

I wish SE would stop pretending that the people on the forums are good job designers. It's one thing to listen to customer pain points, it's entirely another to take their suggestions for fixes and apply them.

Design is a skillset and one that most people playing this game don't have. I've seen a lot of products ruined by taking customer design requests directly and implementing them. Customers understand their pain. That you can't argue with. But taking their solutions to the problem and applying them directly is lazy pandering. The customer isn't always right when they're telling you how to run your business or how to design your products.

"Kaiten feeling bad or being confusing" is good feedback. "Please remove Kaiten" is bad feedback.