Bring Back Kaiten

[xAFROx]

I think a big problem is that a lot of us don't buy the button bloat reasoning - that isn't to say that we don't acknowledge that it might be something they need to address, but rather that if button bloat was truly what they were trying to address, removing Kaiten isn't a rational first choice.

They passed up on other obvious options that would have reduced button bloat without affecting the job's core gameplay, so we can safely assume that they removed Kaiten specifically to affect the job's core gameplay - not to reduce button bloat.

So, if they didn't remove Kaiten to address button bloat, then we can infer that they did it to "streamline" the job and/or make it less bursty, and since they also redistributed potency to make it less bursty, it seems exceptionally likely that they removed Kaiten explicitly for that reason and are just using button bloat as a scapegoat.

Well, supposedly, the more accurate translations infer action bloat as in button frequency, rather than number of buttons. Which, even if that is the case like they say, the problem remains unsolved because without kaiten we just fill that space with another shinten, thus still meeting the same APM they were trying to reduce.

Playing without Kaiten the past few days feels like I'm doing something without a thumb or finger and I'm having phantom pains trying to play without it thanks to forcefully trying to undo muscle memory

[RyuuZero]

My Main Question remains:
What Skill combines the Iaijutsu Mechanic with the Kenki Resource?
which was what Kaiten did also, you invested 20 Kenki for 50% more damage, true it worked with all Weaponskills (not exclusively for Iaijutsu) but still validated Kenki as a Resource to increase Damage output for the existing Kit. Now Kenki is tagged on and disconnected from Iaijutsu and Meditation doesn't count since it is completely Kenki Independent.

That is my Main Issue that I see with the Kaiten Removal, the Synergy of Iaijutsu and Kenki is destroyed. What would change if Senei and Guren wouldn't have the 25 Kenki requirement, but still had the shared 2 minute could down, I'd argue nothing would change and then we have Kenki for Shinten(and Kyuten for AoE) and I think then we could get some alternative Shinten/Kyuten Ready Proc Trigger System and voila: Kenki has become useless!

I do not want that to happen and That is why I think that Kaiten made Kenki matter in first place, what else would be the reason for Kaiten to be the first Kenki Ability than to introduce Kenki as a New Resource to Increase Damage? later Kenki Abilities were added to Expand and Deepen Kenki Management, but without Kaiten that doesn't matter as much anymore.

[RyuuZero]

I think it's fair to give Insight of How I deal with the Samurai Kit, so let me show you how I play Samurai to further build on the Understand that I build over the years playing Samurai and yes I play on Console/Controller so I play with multiple interfaces:

Interface 1: Single Target
https://ibb.co/JFWJVb9

as you see there are 2 Macros, the Macro on Triangle is Shoha and Senei on One Button and the Macro on Square is Ikishoten and Ogi Namikiri on One Button, Senei and Ikishoten both have a 2minute Cool Down, so it works well together without the need to switch interfaces and I will rewrite that Ikishoten Macro once we get a Single Target Ogi. For those who are interested in these Macros:

Senei+Shoha Macro =

/macroicon "Hissatsu: Senei"
/ac "Shoha"
/ac "Hissatsu: Senei"

when you have 3 Meditation Stacks press this button and for Senei aswell of course.

Ikishoten+Ogi Namikiri Macro =

/macroicon "Ikishoten"
/ac "Ikishoten"
/ac "Ogi Namikiri"

personally I named this Macro How I would've named Ogi Namikiri and Kaeshi Namikiri: Double Slice Buster you have to press the Button 3 times to use this macro to it's fullest potencial I recommend to write the Abilities in Auto-translate so you can use this macro on all available clients and also These Macros are a suggestion, I do not command you to use those Macros, just do as you please.

Interface 2: Counter/Refresh and Kenki Option Display
https://ibb.co/dWr14Jz

This Interface is mostly just there for Third Eye, Second Wind and Blood Bath, all the other stuff is just kind of there and it's a bit chaotic. I basicly just use this interface to counter raidwide AoEs and then switch back to Interface 1, most of the time.

Interface 3: AoE
https://ibb.co/4Vp1D0Z

I love this Interface since it doesn't need Macros and almost every ability on display is AoE! Mumyo Shoha to spend my Meditation Stacks while I'm in an AoE Situation and Ogi Namikiri manually aswell oh and next to Ikishoten, Guren because of the 2minute Cool Down and If I have too many Setsugekka, there is Hagakure to convert into Kenki. By The Way, I got the inspiration for this Interface while playing on my Hrothgar Alt and I'm so happy that I adapted it on my Main!

Interface 4: Utility
https://ibb.co/8KcbcH3

This Interface also looks kind of chaotic and I mainly have this for the L2 Side.. It's an Interface that I use on most all other Jobs I play, so it's quite handy if a Knockback Immunity Situation occurs and course True North.

[RHarris1349]

Here’s an easy fix to our “action bloat issue” Squenix:

Take away Kaeshi: Higanbana and give us back Hissatsu: Kaiten.

And like magic, problem solved!

[RyuuZero]

Kaeshi: Higanbana is a Part of Tsubamegaeshi, like Higanbana is a Part of Iaijutsu.
you would basicly take away 1/3 of a Skill, which doesn't make anysense since the button bloat critique in Samurai is wrong from the start
it would make more sense to turn Tsubamegaeshi into a trait so you have to double tab Iaijutsu, but then the Tsubamegaeshi Skills had to be damage adjusted due to increased frenquency and Kaeshi: Higanbana should count extra for that change to make sense in first place so: no thanks

[CelestiCer]

This is how I have my HUD setup

Minimalistic take. The idea is to stop fighting the hotbar, focus on the fight. All buttons are hidden to help me do so and memorized since all I do is play SAM ( for now... ).

Explanation: Hakaze is hidden on 1, pressing it highlights Yukikaze, so I know it's active. Pressing Jinpu or Shifu will turn off Yukikaze, but highlights Kasha and Gekko. This I apply to everything.

Ikishoten pops Ogi Namikiri buff anyways.
Senei shares CD with Guren anyways
ThirdEye / Yaten / Gyoten you never spam to need to know the CD.
Meditate or Enpi or Hakagureyou nvr spam to need to see them
Shoha and Shoha II are indicated by the Meditate Gauge.
Shinten / Kaiten / Kyuten, all u need is to see the Kenki Gauge for these
Fuga / Mangetsu / Oka / really are just AoE buttons I put on R F V mixed with Shift or Mouse buttons, honestly its really a 1 2 3 thing don't need to see them.


I already " Pre-Solved " Button Bloat " visually " on my Hud, it's all just properly hotkey'd. That's why it baffles me that they can't figure this out or even see a logical connection between so many skills to fix Button Bloat. It's obvious, it's a given if they but had anyone on their team that plays the game and the classes.

PS: No I don't use an MMO mouse either, I use the cheapest corsair with 2 side buttons .__.;

[RyuuZero]

I kinda wanna see this HUD in action to be honest^^, though I will repeat, even if there are many differing opinions, our goal has to be the same: we want the devs to bring back Kaiten,
for me as First Kenki Skill to introduce the Samurai Player to Kenki as a Resource to boost damage and Shinten/Kyuten/Senei and Guren as additional options for leftover Kenki.
But Kaiten is what validates Kenki for me in the First Place.

if you want you can write your personal reason down here why they should bring back Kaiten

[CelestiCer]

I kinda wanna see this HUD in action to be honest^^, though I will repeat, even if there are many differing opinions, our goal has to be the same: we want the devs to bring back Kaiten,
for me as First Kenki Skill to introduce the Samurai Player to Kenki as a Resource to boost damage and Shinten/Kyuten/Senei and Guren as additional options for leftover Kenki.
But Kaiten is what validates Kenki for me in the First Place.

if you want you can write your personal reason down here why they should bring back Kaiten

I can actually show it yay with discord sceenshare xD
But it's honestly not difficult. And made easier since... well I only play 1 job just my SAM ( still for now ) and while muscle memory is indeed just a thing, it's more so what i was showing that " Visually " 1 skill progs the next to indicate a logical reasoning behind " Button fusing " one skill with another. If they really needed to? they could also Skill merge some skills? though only a suggestion I made for their so called " Button/Action Bloat " issue alternative solution vs Kaiten removal.

[darkdyllon]

This is how I have my HUD setup

Minimalistic take. The idea is to stop fighting the hotbar, focus on the fight. All buttons are hidden to help me do so and memorized since all I do is play SAM ( for now... ).

Explanation: Hakaze is hidden on 1, pressing it highlights Yukikaze, so I know it's active. Pressing Jinpu or Shifu will turn off Yukikaze, but highlights Kasha and Gekko. This I apply to everything.

Ikishoten pops Ogi Namikiri buff anyways.
Senei shares CD with Guren anyways
ThirdEye / Yaten / Gyoten you never spam to need to know the CD.
Meditate or Enpi or Hakagureyou nvr spam to need to see them
Shoha and Shoha II are indicated by the Meditate Gauge.
Shinten / Kaiten / Kyuten, all u need is to see the Kenki Gauge for these
Fuga / Mangetsu / Oka / really are just AoE buttons I put on R F V mixed with Shift or Mouse buttons, honestly its really a 1 2 3 thing don't need to see them.


I already " Pre-Solved " Button Bloat " visually " on my Hud, it's all just properly hotkey'd. That's why it baffles me that they can't figure this out or even see a logical connection between so many skills to fix Button Bloat. It's obvious, it's a given if they but had anyone on their team that plays the game and the classes.

PS: No I don't use an MMO mouse either, I use the cheapest corsair with 2 side buttons .__.;

doesn't look bad, it's more or less muscle memory like with every job, so you can press them without having to stare at your hotbar.
before i got my cross hotbar for my controller i made an bar with GCD cooldowns so i knew when something was coming off CD, not needed anymore, but the thing is.
the more you play a job, the more comfortable you'll feel and the easier it becomes, that's something newer players generally don't like, it's either "i instantly get it" or "i'm not gonna play it"

[MalekMan]

Bump. I absolutely hate this change and Square cannot stop hearing our voices until they return it.

My two big reasons for it are:

1) CLASS FANTASY: There was absolutely nothing more badass-feeling than twirling our swords around going into an Iaijutsu to empower it. Simple, but incredibly important.

2) CLASS COHESION: As has been stated in this thread already, without Kaiten, there is now literally 0 interaction between Sen and Kenki, and the removal of that one single button makes the whole class feel like an incohesive mess. On top of that, Kenki management has been completely axed, and there is just nothing fun about spamming Shinten or Kyuten with absolutely no thought in how that's going to affect the rest of your rotation.

SQUARE. PLEASE BRING IT BACK IN 6.2 BEFORE YOU KILL THE ENTIRE CLASS.