Please think of better ways to lessen class skill gaps than removing abilities.

[Kolsykol]

As long as SE keeps considering about nuking buttons for the sake of console players in future expansions where more skills will be added, the simplification won't stop.


Veteran will grief, but casual will rejoice.

Do casuals really rejoice tho?
Like I've said before I think people severely underestimate casuals, I think most casuals still want it to be engaging and pose at least some challenge.
I don't think that casuals wanted Kaiten removed, why was it never brought up and complained about before then?

I've even seen people complain about Shinten but never Kaiten.
I just don't think that most casuals are so bad at the game that Kaiten was so hard to use for them, which I mean I am sry but if Kaiten was a problem then yeah...
It's the same in action games like DMC and Bayonetta, I still think casuals want to do more than just button mash.
There's a ton of people who are casuals who gave Elden Ring a shot too and ended up loving it, sometimes I think people kinda just don't know what they want and I wouldn't trust people who don't even have SAM leveled up beyond Stormblood or don't play it at all to lecture others about how SAM should play.

I just don't think that the bar for casuals are that low that they can't perform their base rotation properly or that they find it so hard that they want stuff removed.
I think that's something people bellow casual engage with.

[Silver-Strider]

I view the entire button bloat argument as just an excuse to homogenize classes so they're easier to balance, regardless of how detrimental to class identity and enjoyment it might be. If it was truly a concern, why do skills like Undraw, Repose, Anatman, etc exist?

[Rilifane]

I view the entire button bloat argument as just an excuse to homogenize classes so they're easier to balance, regardless of how detrimental to class identity and enjoyment it might be. If it was truly a concern, why do skills like Undraw, Repose, Anatman, etc exist?

Exactly.
That is why "But console players!!" is such a bullshit argument. They have plenty of opportunities on every single class to merge and adjust skills to reduce the number of buttons without changing the gameplay in any noticeable way.
Having a skill gap, even a fairly big one, is fine. The only thing that truly matters for new players is how accessible a class is at its skill floor and if it's fine to play at skill floor level to clear mandatory (= MSQ) content. Both things can easily be accomplished without closing the gap between skill floor and skill ceiling by constantly bringing the skill ceiling down.
Everyone can clear content by playing at skill floor level. There is no necessesity for an accessible skill ceiling, nobody is entitled to being able to easily play well. I'm not a good SAM and that's okay because I don't spend time actively trying to improve. So why should someone that does want to put in the work be forced to play at my level?

Button bloat and action bloat sounds more and more like an excuse. They didn't reduce action bloat. All the kenki gets used on Shinten spam instead, number of actions remained the same.

[Kira_Yaeger]

Eventually the skill ceiling will be how hard can you faceroll 1 button on your keyboard ex. Healer and no argument will change my mind. IMO if you just took the HW class design and did a couple tweaks everything would be just fine. Buuuut Yoshi Grandmaster P already said HW is never coming back, so I guess I will have to live with the decreasing amount of skill needed to even play at a decent level and diminishing returns on pumping 500 hours into a class to learn every little cool thing that gives you satisfaction. Guess I'll just play PvP since that's what they want.

[forsakee]

Ps4/controller player that mains SAM - We had plenty of space for all abilities. I think this was a lazy "fix" to balance sam. 2 weeks ago they had no idea on their plans and it was obvious.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Threads like this are always full of hyperbole.

SAM has close to 36 buttons, 1 is removed, everyone: omg in a year we'll have one button to press, sky is falling!

[Derio]

SAM did need pruning but not in this way. It needed consolidation to where abilites simply changed using the same button. Most jobs that havent had a rework will in the future. Cutting abilities is not the answer.

[forsakee]

Threads like this are always full of hyperbole.

SAM has close to 36 buttons, 1 is removed, everyone: omg in a year we'll have one button to press, sky is falling!

I'm fine with one ability being taken away as long as it doesn't change the gameplay/balance in a big way, plus the gameplay doesn't seem as good.

It's a bad change disappointed in devs

[Fhaerron]

Threads like this are always full of hyperbole.

SAM has close to 36 buttons, 1 is removed, everyone: omg in a year we'll have one button to press, sky is falling!

It's not about the fact that one button was removed. It more has to do with which one that got removed.
The other changes weren't good for same either like always crit and reduced potency on the 'finishers'.

There where other ways to adres this and other buttons to remove and/or combine, etc.

[Silver-Strider]

Threads like this are always full of hyperbole.

SAM has close to 36 buttons, 1 is removed, everyone: omg in a year we'll have one button to press, sky is falling!

SAM has 36 buttons because instead of simply making Shoha upgrade into Shoha 2 and Ikishoten turning into Oni Namikiri, they made them into their own actions and instead of rectifying that, they decided to remove a skill that actually required proper thought and resource management to utilize.

It was an asinine decision that did nothing but make the Kenki Gauge into little more than the Shinten guage and addressed "button bloat" in the worst way imaginable.