Rewards and Drop Rates

[Cthulhu]

So it seems a lot of thread have been popping up with drop rates as the key theme and I wanted to do something special with my 100th post. So here it is. I'd like to see an open discourse on this topic under this thread instead of spread out over so many others.

Before we begin I'd like to address something up front. There have been two main camps in the aforementioned threads. One camp likes to characterize the other as a bunch of casuals who want full sets of loot to drop in their inventory the first time they see a boss chest, much less 5. They in turn like to characterize the other group as a bunch of basement dwelling masochists who are so devoid of a personal life that content must be run a thousand times so their epeens are protected. Do not do this in this thread! This thread is for people who believe that a reasonable compromise between these two positions can be found. If you do not believe this then I would ask that you post somewhere else. I would like to see suggestions that come out of this thread that if implemented would make the game more rewarding and enjoyable for all to play. Getting bogged down in petty insults and arguments will not accomplish this. Thank you for your understanding on this matter.

With that being said lets jump right into the heart of the matter. Drop rates in this game are low. I don't mean kind of low, I mean it's like Death Valley and below sea level. A lot of players are saying they want to see skill > luck or guaranteed progress for downing bosses. I feel that both of these ideas are flawed and here is my reasoning.

Skill > Luck
Lets face it, there are a lot of skilled players (even though people love to claim otherwise). If skill were the primary determining factor in obtaining rewards then a large portion of the playerbase would be running around if full Darklight for any job they cared to wear it on. A player should be both skillful and lucky to obtain the best rewards in the game. Luck should be greater than skill, however skillful play should increase a players luck.

Guaranteed Progress
A great idea on it's face. Give players the ability to see definite incremental progress for completing content. A goal that players can set and see themselves fulfilling as they play. Dress it up as points, tokens, or whatever, the end result is the same. Clearing content gets you a certain percentage down the road to your reward. The downside to this is balancing it out. A currently in game examples to illustrate what I'm talking about here. The first is Garuda. One win = 2 headresses. So when an exploit in the boss AI was found the playerbase swarmed to it and spammed the exploit for their guaranteed progress before it was fixed.

The second example is Toto-Rak seal farming. The FF community loves to take efficiency to a whole new level. The pro and cons of this debate I'll leave to other threads, but the important thing to our discussion is that it exists. If completing content with method X is easier and safer then method Y, the community will flock to X. If method X gives the same rewards in less time than method Y, guess what the community will be doing. If AV takes 2 and a half minutes less to clear than CC and provides the same amount of points or tokens, no one is going to be running CC other than for achievements.

I have a proposal I think would solve these issues I'll post in a bit, but this one is getting a little long winded and I'd like to hear some of your thoughts too.

[Cthulhu]

Proposal

A system of dynamic drop rates. A system that is mildly rewarding for just clearing content, but through player skill and repetition the potential for rewards can be increased. A mechanism for incentivizing certain types of player conduct is to be included.

I came up with the basis for this system in another thread as what I suspected SE might have in place already. If they do have it already it needs some serious tweaking. A reward system based on fatigue is what I suspected because of it's popularity in the early core systems of this game at launch and the discrepancy from what I have seen for drop rates as a someone who casually runs endgame vs what more hard core endgamers are reporting.

Basic System

*note* all numbers are for illustrative purposes only. Also this is a systems not designed for most players now who are just consuming the incremental content until 2.0, but from a standpoint of people returning to the game now or starting it at 2.0

Re-entry Cooldown Timer set @ 15 min.

Drop Rate: @ 0 wins per 24 hours = 5%, @ 2 wp24 = 2.5%, @ 4 wp24 = 1.25%. and so on.

That's the skeleton of the system right there. Low re-entry timer is kept so that casual gamers can fit multiple runs into a shorter time frame and content is spammable by those with more time for a greater chance at rewards. A cap is placed through diminishing returns on time invested to keep them from getting to far ahead of the more casual gamer. The diminishing returns also encourage players to cycle through all the content instead of spamming one instance.

Player Skill and Incentivized Conduct

Right now SE rewards player skill through placing the Darklight body armor in the Time Attack chest. Those players, who through repetition and teamwork, can beat the timer are given a shot at the body. I'm not going to say this is a bad method, but I think we can do better. Rewarding player skill with hidden modifiers to the drop rate. No deaths = .5%, Incapacitating key boss areas = .5%, 1 Primal already defeated in last 24 = .25%, both the other Primals defeated in last 24 = .5%.

Modifiers that incentivize player conduct can also be added. No more than 2 of a class = .5%, All jobs represented = .5%, Player in the party without any wins today = .5%, Players in the party getting first win ever = 1%. We could even get crazy and incentivize other conduct in other typse of conduct. Slept in a bed the last 24 hours = .125%, retainer bazaar open in the market wards of GC's home naton = .5% Emoted /dance /laugh /psych /dance 1 min before entering = 10%

There you have it. Please, please, point out any flaws you see in this system. If you have a fix for the flaws I pointed out in the first post please post it. The idea here is to poke and prod these systems in the light of day until we are left with a system with such clear advantages and such minimal flaws that the devs would look foolish if they didn't implement it.

[Madruk]

I just want longer lockouts and higher drop rates. That way at least you can get the same amount of drops in the same amount of time, except you don't have to burn yourself out doing the same content 10000000 times vs 100.

Of course I realize this isn't really feasible as all we're getting is filler content till 2.0. Till then, I'll reserve judgement.

[Fated]

The horse is beyond death at this point.

[Mirana]

Well it's just fine as it is for me now ,
new players got plenty of contents to do and old players got Garuda , AV and CC.
I don't really want to say it , but yeah if you're getting bore of AV and CC for now
Please be a little patient until 1.22b come with a whole new content.

IMO . The developer create AV and CC for time sink .
they really aiming for buying time to develop other contents while player still stuck in AV and CC.

We'll see the improvement in new content coming up next.

[Cthulhu]

I just want longer lockouts and higher drop rates.

I think this is a sub-optimal solution. Longer lockouts with higher drop rates simply favor those with more time to play per day over those who do not.

The horse is beyond death at this point.

Yes, this horse was beaten to death. Then it re-animated as a zombie and craves your flesh. What we must do now is destroy the brain.

IMO . The developer create AV and CC for time sink .
they really aiming for buying time to develop other contents while player still stuck in AV and CC.

We'll see the improvement in new content coming up next.

I think that with SE's history of drop rates this is an overly optimistic assessment. It it just continuing an old pattern they have. For this game to truly thrive I think they have to do better.

[Madruk]

I think this is a sub-optimal solution. Longer lockouts with higher drop rates simply favor those with more time to play per day over those who do not.

How does say, an 8 hour lockout favor those with more playtime? They can't do it more than what the lockout allows, so any longer lockout actually favors those with less time.

Either way these dungeons aren't designed with those type of lockouts in mind. They can be done in 20 minutes or less. Anything with longer lockouts is going to have to be alot more involved and time consuming (and hopefully more difficult).

[Cthulhu]

Because then it just becomes a numbers game at that point. Those with more time to devote can quickly outpace those with less time to spend. Though a lock out as large as 8 hours would limit that to an extent. I will agree that current content is not well designed for such long lockouts.

[Tango]

With long lockouts like 24hours or more the avg player would have serious issues finishing the content we have now. Even with the documented strats out its no small task to take in a rag tag group and SR5C av or cc.

[syntaxlies]

So it seems a lot of thread have been popping up with drop rates as the key theme and I wanted to do something special with my 100th post. So here it is. I'd like to see an open discourse on this topic under this thread instead of spread out over so many others.

Before we begin I'd like to address something up front. There have been two main camps in the aforementioned threads. One camp likes to characterize the other as a bunch of casuals who want full sets of loot to drop in their inventory the first time they see a boss chest, much less 5. They in turn like to characterize the other group as a bunch of basement dwelling masochists who are so devoid of a personal life that content must be run a thousand times so their epeens are protected. Do not do this in this thread! This thread is for people who believe that a reasonable compromise between these two positions can be found. If you do not believe this then I would ask that you post somewhere else. I would like to see suggestions that come out of this thread that if implemented would make the game more rewarding and enjoyable for all to play. Getting bogged down in petty insults and arguments will not accomplish this. Thank you for your understanding on this matter.

With that being said lets jump right into the heart of the matter. Drop rates in this game are low. I don't mean kind of low, I mean it's like Death Valley and below sea level. A lot of players are saying they want to see skill > luck or guaranteed progress for downing bosses. I feel that both of these ideas are flawed and here is my reasoning.

Skill > Luck
Lets face it, there are a lot of skilled players (even though people love to claim otherwise). If skill were the primary determining factor in obtaining rewards then a large portion of the playerbase would be running around if full Darklight for any job they cared to wear it on. A player should be both skillful and lucky to obtain the best rewards in the game. Luck should be greater than skill, however skillful play should increase a players luck.

Guaranteed Progress
A great idea on it's face. Give players the ability to see definite incremental progress for completing content. A goal that players can set and see themselves fulfilling as they play. Dress it up as points, tokens, or whatever, the end result is the same. Clearing content gets you a certain percentage down the road to your reward. The downside to this is balancing it out. A currently in game examples to illustrate what I'm talking about here. The first is Garuda. One win = 2 headresses. So when an exploit in the boss AI was found the playerbase swarmed to it and spammed the exploit for their guaranteed progress before it was fixed.

The second example is Toto-Rak seal farming. The FF community loves to take efficiency to a whole new level. The pro and cons of this debate I'll leave to other threads, but the important thing to our discussion is that it exists. If completing content with method X is easier and safer then method Y, the community will flock to X. If method X gives the same rewards in less time than method Y, guess what the community will be doing. If AV takes 2 and a half minutes less to clear than CC and provides the same amount of points or tokens, no one is going to be running CC other than for achievements.

I have a proposal I think would solve these issues I'll post in a bit, but this one is getting a little long winded and I'd like to hear some of your thoughts too.

shouldn't this thread have been in one of the already made ones...