Healer PVP Actions are Amazing

[Deceptus]

I think what works about the healer kits in PvP is because they wanted to move away from needing a healer, healers instead get more support oriented. Healing is now a resource you have to think about. Like for scholar you get 2 instant adlos and 2 deployment tactics. You could use both deployments on the adlo, or you can use one on the adlo, one on biolysis.

This is my take as well.

Every healer gets a whopping TWO heals on a 15s recharge while tanks and DPS have a 123 rotation plus burst. If anyone is focused by 2 or more people they're going to die no matter what.

Especially healers

[Callypso]

Every healer gets a whopping TWO heals on a 15s recharge while tanks and DPS have a 123 rotation plus burst. If anyone is focused by 2 or more people they're going to die no matter what.

Especially healers

This statement is not only false, its disingenuous. A combo doesn't matter if YOUR one button press out damages it. Which it does for tanks, who are 3k 4k 5k respectively & need to be 5y away to hit. Matter of fact you're only 1K away from BRD's basic attack which does 6k at 15y+ and is the hardest hitting basic of RDPS.

Whm has a 30y attack that does 12k so far away even RDPS cant target em. They also have a 20y gap closer that buffs the party 10% damage mit while doing 6k . Both are OGCD's so you can immediately go Glare III -> Afflatus -> Seraph to do 23K in 2 seconds while taking 10% less dmg and then aoe heal w/ cure 3

You also get to interrupt classes like WAR, or keep a pushing tank/dps alive long enough to kill enemy healers- Removing status effects with veil to shield... Healers aren't about getting kills, theyre about helping their party stay alive, not about doing damage like DRG or MNK. However the burst WHM has is RESPECTABLE when it comes to finishing off players who try to push and getting low from the rest of the party hitting them Tanks have the most HP in PVP 23K is basically 1/3 of their HP gone in 2s from a healer alone.

Right now healers are the ONLY class that can survive 2 DPS chasing them across the map unless the DPS have LB, you get two ADDITIONAL heals which you can ALTERNATE with the standard medkits for longer sustain and a 12K shield every time you cleanse the Debuffs w/ veil enemies put on you, not to mention the 10% mit from the offensive seraph strike. least on whm.

Healers kits are OBJECTIVELY great,they absolutely are NOT lacking burst or damage... I mean FFS SCH's 15 sec skill Biolysis does 45K potency over 15s while also debuffing the targets dmg by 10%.

As a TANK using my LB i can do a MAXIMUM of 64k potency assuming EVERY skill is off CD and successfully hits, meaning 1v1ing a scholar if they hit me with it id do 57.6K potency using my LB while taking 45k using 2 skills and 4 GCD's for their single button press...45k is LITERALLY 3/4 medkids which regen 1 per 15s via MP meaning after 3 rotations being healed through i literally LOSE even w/ blood whetting if i try to chase, only exacerbated by my gap closer damaging me 10% to use each time.

HONEST question- what MORE do you think the role needs? What complaints do you actually have w/ the kits? Cuz i'm not seeing it when play. Ive only found myself feeling like a loss or death is unfair when i get status locked by consecutive effects , get stuck trying to heal against anything w/ BH V or accidentally double tap guard... it really feels like it should have a 1s CD to prevent that from happening it being a panic button and all.

[Deceptus]

You're wrong on virtually every point you're attempting to make.

Whm has a 30y attack that does 12k so far away even RDPS cant target em.

You act like ranged DPS don't have 12k attacks themselves (hint, they do) on much shorter CD's. You act like the melee don't have gap closers to cause pressure on short 10s CDs

Right now healers are the ONLY class that can survive 2 DPS chasing them across the map

Until the healer burns the only 2 heals they have and then what? Burn guard where they can't do anything else but run? Burn their Recuperate which blasts through their mana with no way to regen it?

Healers kits are OBJECTIVELY great,they absolutely are NOT lacking burst or damage... I mean FFS SCH's 15 sec skill Biolysis does 45K potency over 15s while also debuffing the targets dmg by 10%..

You need to learn to do basic math. Perhaps you're a healer developer or something. 3000 potency with a 15s duration isn't 45K total potency. It's 15K (5 ticks of 3k damage) on a 15s CD.

HONEST question- what MORE do you think the role needs? What complaints do you actually have w/ the kits?

I said earlier, they need a spammable basic heal that equalizes whatever basic damage a dps can put out over their 123. That's called balance. 1v1 a healer should be equal to what a dps can put out. The entire point of pvp is go gang up on a healer or CC them. Been a basic strategy since pvp was started in mmos.

In 5v5 the lack of a basic heal isn't gamebreaking, it's just annoying. But when it's 24 v 24 v 24 in frontlines? Healers are pointless.

Basically: You picked the absolute wrong person to try to talk numbers and balance to fella.

[Semirhage]

That's probably related to the eternal MMO debate on healers in PVP. They're either strong enough to outheal a DPS, and therefore nigh unkillable, or they're not, in which case they're obligate first targets and free points for classes more powerful than they are. Guess which choice the DPS regard as more "fair". And guess which role the people in charge of decisions main.

[Callypso]

They're either strong enough to outheal a DPS, and therefore nigh unkillable, or they're not, in which case they're obligate first targets and free points for classes more powerful than they are.

They are a utility class meant to give their party more sustain in a group. Their healing range is further than RDPS can attack them capping at 25m and THEY get a 12k pot that does damage AT THAT RANGE where they cant even be touched by other classes. PDPS and Tanks need to rush past their entire group to start doing damage and get focused so the best they can hope for is to trade kills for the healer hoping it lets the rest of THEIR group pick off the remainder.

Healers are SUPPOSED to be the first priority when encountering a group, if a healer is doing their job correctly they shouldn't BE in a 1V1. They should be with at least 2-3 other players.

Just like as a tank i don't get very many kills, i go positive by 1-2 and have 30~50 assists + several objectives. Because that's what my role is supposed to do UTILITY, the only class i SHOULD be able to walk over is the OTHER utility class.

Blota people in so MY PARTY can kill them. Sacrifice myself stalling to prevent enemies from claiming points while MY PARTY comes to clear them out. Make peoples lives a living hell when they're trying to PUSH the crystal in CC. Run OUT of it to blota enemies OUT of the area so MY PARTY can continue the push.

Healers are supposed to be vulnerable, that should be the price of being able to give their entire party 10% damage mit EVEN IF YOU DIE afterwards. 15 ticks of 4400 Hp regen with your LB EVEN IF YOU'RE DEAD AFTERWARDS. 12k damage from 30 malms away where they cant be touched.

If a healer is in a 1v1 in frontlines or last man standing trying to push / hold the crystal in CC. they shouldn't be able to heal through literally the LB and burst of another class without being FORCED to counter with their own LB at the very least. Even if they're playing PERFECTLY it isn't right, it isn't their role, it isn't FAIR.

I'm not here for unfair advantages, i'm not here to lobby for WAR supremacy even though its my favorite. I'm here for sake of actual balance and good game design. Something I earnestly didn't think PVP would get in the first place, but SE is clearly listening, clearly trying, and has made MANY improvements over the previous MESS that was Feast + Frontline +Rival Wings. So i'll be damned if i don't do everything in my power to try and use that momentum to get PVP into a state most people will be happy with and actually play once GARO is over.

Healers were extremely over tuned before 6.1, and they are STILL slightly over tuned, the self heal penalty would fix that and force a focus on group play as was intended. I play frontline DAILY, usually on whatever class i'm leveling at the time, i've been PDPS RDPS Tank and Healer, and will continue to play EVERY roll as i level my remaining classes. I look at things through an objective lense.

I look at classes kits as a whole when i see frustrating elements like reapers LB allowing for a quick instant push in CC since hysteria makes people walk outside the crystal zone 90% of the time. It also allows up to 10 kills/assists courtesy of gravity almost instantly in frontlines on the borderland ramps. Its fair because its a LB, because its situational, is it frustrating? Yes, but it IS fair.

Trust me if i weren't about fairness and just wanted my number to be bigger id scream bloody murder over DRG's limit break crapping on mine w/ its 5s effectively invuln window before its guaranteed one button 30K AOE, while i need to have 2 different skills off cooldown being managed to match their AOE potential with severe risk it doesn't even happen instead of saying healers are overturned, BH needs to be removed, and other classes need resistance so 4 wars cant stun-lock an entire party to death when coordinating.

You ever been Primal rended + CC, into a primal rend + CC, into a primal rend + CC , into a 4th primal rend + CC by a group of friends playing together in frontline killing basically everyone before they can respond? Yeah, that shouldn't be a thing that's physically possible no matter how fun it is for the people who do it. That's unfair game design and even if the other group were BSing on discord as it happened they still couldn't do jack to stop it.

You know what i'd be doing if you could queue for CC with a premade party? Letting the entire enemy team get on the crystal and then stunlock them as the previous example leading to a big push EVERY game, and every time they kill us until they learn to leave ONE person on the point to avoid the meta.

But what do I know.

[Tobias_Azuryon]

Healers were extremely over tuned before 6.1, and they are STILL slightly over tuned, the self heal penalty would fix that and force a focus on group play as was intended. I play frontline DAILY, usually on whatever class i'm leveling at the time, i've been PDPS RDPS Tank and Healer, and will continue to play EVERY roll as i level my remaining classes. I look at things through an objective lense.

To be fair, most of your issues are WHM issues not Healer specific issues. WHM is busted/overtuned yeah. That's why the "objective lens" thing doesn't make much sense. Your problem is with WHMs not healers, and yes WHM is busted.

I don't think anyone in their right mind disagrees that WHM is overtuned, and that's why WAR/WHM is so overpowering in the meta.

Self heal penalty is a garbage idea, especially when like as a SGE I get zero utility outside of dps, which means if I'm going against a WAR/WHM combo my party is probably mad because they're already at a disadvantage.

Group play wouldn't be encouraged by making those changes, it would just force the meta even further to damage+CC being king, something that's already a huge problem.

A healer SHOULD be able to outlast a tank or dps 1v1'ing them, especially when very often, especially in casual, the entire team goes to screw around somewhere else while the nin/rpr/mch/sam burst you down and then wonder why they're dead. With healers being more balanced/having less heals it would make no sense to have it be "Oh if they have a single person on them they're dead"

[AnotherPerson]

That's probably related to the eternal MMO debate on healers in PVP. They're either strong enough to outheal a DPS, and therefore nigh unkillable, or they're not, in which case they're obligate first targets and free points for classes more powerful than they are. Guess which choice the DPS regard as more "fair". And guess which role the people in charge of decisions main.

This debate makes sense, but if this wasn't PvP related. Point of contention doesn't exist in a team-based setting against other players. Healers can only partially fix a mistake or lengthen the duration of combat readiness, which fits into the current PvP design (Recuperation tied to MP). PvP is mainly resembling a MOBA game. A healer is not all powerful, as the game exists to facilitate good teamplay and not good babysitter gameplay. They're not completely worthless either, because of their unique range and effective ability that tilts the battle to their team's favor. Imo, the current PvP healers are designed well for this purpose after considering what every other job has in their toolkit.

If your party members can't figure out how to use Recuperation and not stand in the line of the opponent's AoE, you can't blame the healer's toolkit for that. Not even PvE healers can save you from blatantly staying in the line of fire for so long.

[IkaraGreydancer]

i cant stand ff14's pvp very much between me not judging distances well, getting constantly dogpiled and incompetent teammates (1 game of frontlines is enough for me, though crystal conflict is better reminding me of tower control from splatoon) but even i found some enjoyment in the healer kits. Until i get cc'd to death and/or one shot (I ate TWO 3% one shots from a mch in one game last night rip Avarnia's midsection)

the best bit was having cards again. I said to my friend last night that i was basically having a "its been 3000 years..." moment

i also got a bit of enjoyment out of blm getting to spam flare repeatedly as teh lb. Especially since i got exdeath's flare modded over regular flare for being so much more satisfying

can we swap the pve and pvp job designers asap?

Why would you be on official forums talking about mods you use...? You trying to get banned?

[Recon1o6]

Why would you be on official forums talking about mods you use...? You trying to get banned?

People talked about fflogs, gshade and parsers on these forums some of which are blatantly illegal and get away with it. yoshida has also indicated that cosmetic sfw mods providing you keep them to yourself are fine.

Besides, no mods actually look at these posts uless they are flagged, thats why the warrior p1s soloing thread got moved when it shouldn't have

The majority of mods a lot of people use are ones that SE are slowly adding into the game such as the unobtained/unregistered flag added this patch. That used to be an extremely popular mod that people sued to track their Triple triad cards, orchestrion rolls etc.

[SpiralMask]

People talked about fflogs, gshade and parsers on these forums some of which are blatantly illegal and get away with it. yoshida has also indicated that cosmetic sfw mods providing you keep them to yourself are fine.

Besides, no mods actually look at these posts uless they are flagged, thats why the warrior p1s soloing thread got moved when it shouldn't have

The majority of mods a lot of people use are ones that SE are slowly adding into the game such as the unobtained/unregistered flag added this patch. That used to be an extremely popular mod that people sued to track their Triple triad cards, orchestrion rolls etc.

now the've just gotta implement the various "here's literally every hair, hat, and helmet working on vieras and hrothgar with variable ear compatibility of your choice at installation" mods that are already a thing.

from what they've shown off for the materials/shaders/shadows demo they're putting in good work towards removing the need for gshade (though honestly that means gshade folks can go even more crazy alongside it with other features, so it's healthy for both rather than one killing the other)