Samurai AoE Damage

[waterboytkd]

We'll see tomorrow once everything goes live, but it appears the devs forgot to give Tenka Goken and Kaeshi: Goken the auto-crits they should get?

Either that, or the baseline potency on Tenka Goken should have been improved, while Kaeshi: Goken should not have been nerfed.

As it stands now, getting more Kyuten during AoE rotations doesn't make up for the loss of Kaiten, potency-wise. It's worth less potency than Kaiten on Tenka Goken was, *and* it costs 5 more Kenki.

Also, not sure why they made the effort to nerf the potency on Kaeshi: Goken, but not give it the auto-crit. I mean, that's why Midare, Ogi, and their Kaeshi got potency nerfs. But Kaeshi: Goken got nerfed without a corresponding buff.

This, to me, is clearly an oversight. Hopefully, it's just an error with the Job Guide, and thus the patch notes.

[huhwat]

Lol Aside from the death of Kaiten, sad face....

Goken's nerf was a "What?" face moment

[KatsukoYashiro]

It seems they decided that changing the way Tenka Goken was shaped would be an improvement (debatable, since it removes a fun part of trash pulls) and the skill still has no damage fall-off which is neat i suppose.

Making the Kaeshi version the exact same potency is such a joke. I remember when they introduced Tsubame as "Iaijutsu but increased potency" and since then have been constantly walking the potencies of these skills back, to the point that the "increased potency" of some skills isn't even true now.

[FlareDrachyon]

The biggest change beside the potency nerfs, kaiten removal, one button smash for gauge etc to me is the aoe ability potential of a samurai in dungeons and during big pulls.

*Tenka goken* to me got hit really hard: *It doesn't auto crit* like midare, (neither higanbana auto crits!).
THESE two at least should have been able to auto crit to balance the kaiten changes.

Why? Well in big pulls you often used kaiten before tenka goken to buff it up. Adding on top: *Kaeshi:Goken potency reduce from 420 to 280!* .
That's same as normal aoe and it's not guaranteed to crit so you pretty much gaining NOTHING with Kaeshi but just copy of the spell!! Kaeshi was supposed to give you a damage boost to make it feel more satisfying!
*At least if the ability auto critted* , after 4-5 ability usages you had a reliable high dmg aoe to look forward. *420 to 380* (so Kaeshi increases by 100) would have been an understandable nerf move. Don't think making the spell "circular" makes it do more dmg, just some minor QOL imo.

In addition *Kaeshi:Namikiri reduced from 1350 to 800*; I'm still scratching my head on that. It's literally same as normal Namikiri which at average ~ high median ceiling dps is a drastic loss of damage.
*1350 to 1050* (so Kaeshi increases by 200) would have been an UNDERSTANDABLE nerf move. Or even lower the CD to 80s to accommodate the change!

TLDR *potency change together with Kaeshi dmg nerf on any ability* (literally now being a button to just copy the last ability with no buffs whatsoever) is what killed it for me.

[YukiB]

The biggest change beside the potency nerfs, kaiten removal, one button smash for gauge etc to me is the aoe ability potential of a samurai in dungeons and during big pulls.

*Tenka goken* to me got hit really hard: *It doesn't auto crit* like midare, (neither higanbana auto crits!).
THESE two at least should have been able to auto crit to balance the kaiten changes.

Why? Well in big pulls you often used kaiten before tenka goken to buff it up. Adding on top: *Kaeshi:Goken potency reduce from 420 to 280!* .
That's same as normal aoe and it's not guaranteed to crit so you pretty much gaining NOTHING with Kaeshi but just copy of the spell!! Kaeshi was supposed to give you a damage boost to make it feel more satisfying!
*At least if the ability auto critted* , after 4-5 ability usages you had a reliable high dmg aoe to look forward. *420 to 380* (so Kaeshi increases by 100) would have been an understandable nerf move. Don't think making the spell "circular" makes it do more dmg, just some minor QOL imo.

In addition *Kaeshi:Namikiri reduced from 1350 to 800*; I'm still scratching my head on that. It's literally same as normal Namikiri which at average ~ high median ceiling dps is a drastic loss of damage.
*1350 to 1050* (so Kaeshi increases by 200) would have been an UNDERSTANDABLE nerf move. Or even lower the CD to 80s to accommodate the change!

TLDR *potency change together with Kaeshi dmg nerf on any ability* (literally now being a button to just copy the last ability with no buffs whatsoever) is what killed it for me.

Please keep in mind that even in 6.0 the Kaeshi skills hit exactly as hard as the regular iaijutsu. The potency was higher on the tooltip because they couldn't be buffed by Kaiten. Once the iaijutsu was buffed by Kaiten, they did exactly the same damage as the Kaeshi skills. So in that context, with Kaiten removed and auto-crit added in its place, it makes sense that their potency is nerfed to match the iaijutsu.

It doesn't, however, make sense to nerf both Tenka Goken and Kaeshi: Goken because of the loss of Kaiten and lack of auto-crit. Either increase their potency to make up for the loss of Kaiten, or have them auto-crit like Midare and Ogi. Or, best yet, bring Kaiten back!

EDIT: I should also mention that, because we save 20 kenki from not having to cast Kaiten, the regular iaijutsu are technically "stronger" than the Kaeshi versions, relative to how they performed in 6.0. They maybe should have accounted for that and kept some extra potency in the Kaeshi skills.

[Stellarwind]

Actually i tried that now and looked through the situations i encounter with the new tenka goken, aaaand i have to say the circular motion is more a problem for me than an actual gain.

The cone gave me the abyility to aim it through an enemy i decide to stand behind, i have to cast that action... so i have to stand still... or use slidecasting. BUT... the cone gives you the advantage of pre positioning for the cast on an already nearly save spot outside the orange rain of hell, thats now gone, deleted, you have to stand directly in the middle of that pulg of orange mechanics and have to cast it there, the potency joke for that dangerous move aside..(feels not worth it) but in that moment you are like a blackmage and whitemage that tries to be a melee with no stun or possible other things to play against that problem, you are just... done... move or die, overcap it or use it out of range of half of that group and waste it that way, the circle was a realy realy bad decision for that cast, that cant stay like that..

And for the power behind Goken... im pretty sure that they forgot to give it autocrit, thats the only actual reason to think of.. i hope.. its only a mistake that happpend..

from power and strength of that aoe combo... from the looks of the numbers and what i felt before in 6.08... i feel like i got heavily nerfed in my opinion, it feels alot slower and weaker right now.

well thats my feedback on that for now... ah.. i forgot the usage of Hissatsu Guren could be a pain too because to hit everything you still need to align urself too soo..well...you dance around like a madman but in way more danger than before.

[Quor]

Yeah, potency issues aside the biggest thing I miss about the old Tenka is how the cone gave us flexibility in how we avoided aoe, in addition to just being a more interesting aoe combo than "stand in the middle and thoughtlessly press buttons."

[seraph152]

Sure seems like we got a straight up AOE damage nerf, not only was kaiten removed, but Tenka Goken wasnt changed to autocrit, Kaeshi Goken potency was nerfed, and we even lost a bit from Namikiri losing some potency as well.

Wasnt sure about how the cone to circular change would work out. After doing a few dungeons though, really DONT like it at all. With the previous cone for it, was easier to position for possible mob aoe's, and honestly felt like I was getting the most effectiveness out of it. Now with circular, Im finding some mobs not getting hit sometimes, radius is too small.

[CelestiCer]

I despise this, I posted it before in another thread but this looks utterly lazy

The Pre-6.1 Tenka Goken as a cone required Samurai's to aim it at the mob pack. Darting in and out, and having some positional awareness. Go in use Circular AoE attacks, Fuko / Mangetsu / Oka and when you have enough charges your Shoha II. Go out? and use your Tenka Goken. It felt really fun melting packs of mobs like a satisfying execution dance.

Instead we get more bland gameplay of more circles, nothing unique and then also less damage. At least make it Auto-Crit and have kept it a Cone but if people are that worried that how many years SAM has been out? it suddenly the last few days become a problem for players to use Tenka Goken? increase it's range ever so slightly.

I never had an issue using this skill though. Now with it being a circle? I guess I also have no issue I just find it a lot less fun, a lot more boring, and it requires no zero positional thinking. Bland. Oh and as a bonus? no Kaiten , just kicking the fun out of all of it.