Samurai changes are unacceptable in the current iteration

[Fable_Frost]

Right so, I was thinking, if we ever get major changes/overhauls to classes, we should be offered the ability to turn in the specific pieces of gear related to that classes for their respective items. Savage items for books, tome gear for tomes. I've said that in most of my past posts but failed to explain it well.

Great idea!

[CelestiCer]

Was redoing Samurai class quest on an Alt randomly, cause I can't be bothered to do much on my main at the moment... too depressing to be on my main... And I remember a part where we face another Samurai (Spoilers, not really)... immediately I tried remembering what this Samurai was going to cast at me...

This Tenka Goken actually looks like it's aiming a wide slash towards something...
Not 360 slashes even farting slashes behind me when I am clearly slashing forward...
This still exists!!!

GIVE THIS BACK!! GIVE THIS VERSION BACK DX< !!!

[Quor]

Yeah the new Tenka fart is very bland and uninteresting, not to mention it now hits like a wet noodle.

Doing a bit of math on this, our current aoe GCD combo at 90 has a ppGCD (potency per GCD) of 144 per target. So a full combo of Fuko > Oka > Fuko > Mangetsu > Tenka hits for 144 potency for every target hit. It also builds a total of 40 Kenki to be used on Kyuten at 110 potency per target. Kyuten currently has a ppK (potency per Kenki) of 4.4. Spread out over the course of the GCD combo that builds it, this 40 Kenki brings the total ppGCD up from 144 per target to 179.2.

If we remove Tenka from the equation (via using Hagakure to generate 20 Kenki from the 2 Sen we have) we now have 70 Kenki to work with because our 5-GCD aoe combo now looks like Fuko > Oka > Fuko > Mangetsu > Fuko. The base ppGCD of this combo is 108 across 5 GCD's. Clearly Tenka at 280 potency has a marked effect, raising the total ppGCD of the combo across 5 GCD's by almost 40%. But with an additional 70 Kenki to work with due to Hagakure and not using Tenka, the additional oGCD from the Kenki translates into 308 extra potency on top of the standard GCD potency. Divided across those 5 GCD's we get a ppGCD of 169.6 per target, up from 104. Which is 9.6 potency less than we get from the Tenka combo. This means on five targets you're getting 48 less potency per 5 GCD sequence by using Hagakure instead of Tenka. This doubles to 96 less potency per 5 GCD sequence at 10 targets. Since aoe packs rarely go past ten mobs (most stop at around 7-8) the best case scenario for using Tenka over Kyuten is for an additional 96 potency, and only assuming all ten targets are hit by all your aoe.

So let's look at current Tenka with the theoretical addition of Kaiten. At a 50% boost to potency, Kaiten is worth 140 potency in damage when used on Tenka. This, when added to our other 5 GCD's, gives a total potency of 840 across the combo sequence, or 172 ppGCD. Just using 20 out of the 40 Kenki we get on Kaiten already puts the basic aoe combo ahead of the Hagakure/Kyuten version (172 vs. 165.6). Adding in the ppK from the last 20 Kenki generated by our aoe combo the total potency over 5 GCD's comes to 928 for a ppGCD of 185.6.

Given that Tenka has a cast time and Kyuten does not there's also the negligible matter of potential lost auto attacks. I won't calculate this because it's, well, negligible, but it's still worth mentioning in the context of how Tenka - as a circular aoe - now forces the SAM to sit in the middle of a pack of mobs for maximum effect. Kyuten is also circular but it is instant and easy to seamlessly weave while dodging enemy attacks. Tenka has no such benefit, and if you're forced to cancel the cast due to an aoe for some reason then this very-narrow 8.6 potency gap between Tenka and Hagakure/Kyuten start to close very quickly.

So what are the take-aways from this:

1 - Tenka as a circular aoe puts the SAM right in the middle of danger, locking us down while we cast it. We either move if an aoe is coming or risk eating avoidable damage, something that no one wants to eat when running a 4-man.

2 - the damage difference between current non-Kaiten Tenka and Hagakure/Kyuten spam is very low. So low that if you *are* forced to move to dodge something then you're almost certainly better off just eating your Sen with Hagakure and spamming Kyuten to maintain mobility.

3 - the damage difference between Kaiten+Tenka and Tenka+Kyuten spam is about 3.4% before considering crits. This is a direct nerf for no good reason.

4 - the damage difference between Tenka+Kyuten and Kyuten/Hagakure spam is about 5.5% before considering crits. Given that new Tenka can much more easily be interrupted by forced movement to avoid aoes, this is more of a wash than it would appear from the numbers. Even one delayed/cancelled Tenka cast is enough for the Kyuten/Hagakure spam option to catch up in ppGCD.

5 - if lots of movement is necessary to avoid spammed enemy aoe (common in a big pull) then using Tenka+Kyuten over pure Kyuten spam is the way to go as the damage is almost identical and the freedom of movement means you don't get tagged unnecessarily.

The one seemingly-big disadvantage of Kyuten spam over Tenka+Kyuten is the lack of access to Kaeshi. The total potency of this combo across 6 GCD's is 1000 even, for a ppGCD of 166.6. Adding the additional 40 Kenki on top of it we get a total ppGCD of 196 across 6 GCD's and a total potency for the cmobo of 1176.

Using the Kyuten/Hagakure spam version across those same 6 GCD's gives a total ppGCD of 660 with 90 additional Kenki (60 from GCD's, 30 from Sen) for Kyuten. This gives us a total potency across the combo of 1056 for a ppGCD of 176. Compared to one another this is about a 10% damage difference (10.2% or so) in favor of Tenka+Kaeshi over Kyuten/Hagakure. But again, if you're forced to move and delay your Tenka cast due to incoming aoe the difference starts to narrow. Optimal play would seem to be trying to keep Kaeshi cooldown rolling while in aoe situations but not to stress about it otherwise. If you can't safely get Tenka off then it's better to eat the Sen instead and just spam Kyuten. If you can't guarantee you'll hit every target with Tenka but are confident you can maneuver to hit everything with Kyuten then you're better off eating the Sen and using Kyuten, as even missing one target with Tenka puts it below hitting all the targets with the Kyuten-focused combo.

Which is to say that all of this is a very long-winded means of advocating for bringing back Tenka as a conal attack. The entire consideration presented here could be removed from the equation if Tenka was still a cone, allowing SAM's to safely cast Iaijutsu without worrying about dodging enemy aoe's.

Oh and bring back Kaiten.

[KYuuma]

I wonder how many pages these go up to before they cap out?

Around 175 and approx. 2 years like last time, perhaps.

[Shin96]

With these changes, the devs are confirming they think the majority of us are incapable of learning complex rotations and can only follow the shiny buttons

That's what they believed when they changed DRK into a brainless 1-2-3 OGC's infested spamfest. You guys are getting a decent taste of what we had to go through.

[xAFROx]

That's what they believed when they changed DRK into a brainless 1-2-3 OGC's infested spamfest. You guys are getting a decent taste of what we had to go through.

I already got a taste when I stopped playing DRK beyond looking fly in cutscenes thanks to the diet-WAR treatment. I don't want to taste it again. SAM was in a pretty decent spot before this patch.

I want to know what the dev's intentions are supposed to be before I press further judgment, but so long as things remain as they are I stand with the majority on wanting SAM reverted. But I really really hope they eventually consider all the suggestions we've been making.

[Akava]

It has now been a full week since the changes. The short of it is, I still feel 6.1 SAM is a watered down version of 6.08 SAM.

Guaranteed crits on Midare and Ogi make both of these far less exciting. Instead of being blown away from Direct hit Crits, now its a small hype because really, its just a Direct Hit. That feeling of try-harding on a pull because I got an amazing opener is so much more tame than before and that's kind of depressing.

The Tenka Goken change is so bland. I've started watching Youtube while doing dungeons because why do I really need to pay attention? Its not like I need to focus on which target will allow me to hit the most enemies. QoL can and has been pushed too far. Even the slightest inconvenience must be improved.

The Kaiten change is still terrible. Now I'm spamming Shintens like there's no tomorrow. How is that better? How is any of this better?

All this patch did was flatten the high points of SAM with nothing given in return.

[VincentH]

Indeed it has been a week, am i used to the new rotato? Yes. Do i like it? Hell no. And now that the housing drama is pretty much done i would really like a response from the devs addressing the 6.1 job changes. Not only for SAM but for all the others that feel their jobs changed for the worse.

[Shin96]

I already got a taste when I stopped playing DRK beyond looking fly in cutscenes thanks to the diet-WAR treatment. I don't want to taste it again. SAM was in a pretty decent spot before this patch.

I want to know what the dev's intentions are supposed to be before I press further judgment, but so long as things remain as they are I stand with the majority on wanting SAM reverted. But I really really hope they eventually consider all the suggestions we've been making.

I agree with you man. It's beyond my comprehension why they would even do this. You guys need to continue to speak up because there was literally nothing wrong with Kaiten. It was iconic and should have never been removed.

[Roxus]

Hello all. A talking point that has picked up has been the Yukikaze/Hagakure rotation vs the normal rotation. Strictly speaking from the opener to 2 minutes, a normal rotation is about 541/GCD and the Yukikaze/Hagakure rotation is around 537/GCD~. Gap closes when you miss positionals approx 4 times to a .5 difference. If you miss a Midare or Kaeshi, the normal rotation becomes automatically worse at around 533.5/GCD~.

The other talking point is the increased hesitation to post due to uncertainty. As always, don't give up.