Samurai changes are unacceptable in the current iteration

[Theodric_Thorne]

I've tried several DPS jobs and this is the only one I've really clicked with from day one. DRG is close, but I can't really get a good feel for how it plays because the kit feels so incomplete at 56, compared to SAM's out of the box at 50. I don't feel motivated to level DRG to 90 knowing that it will feel awful to play in synced content where SAM would still feel "complete" even if some of the capstone abilities were missing.

If these changes aren't reverted, I dunno how much longer I can stick with the game. Outside of MSQ the only thing I do is chip away at omni-crafting. SAM is the lens through which I experience the majority of the content in this game, but it is no longer fun to play. If button bloat is a problem, why not consolidate some actions in the way that Namikiri already has been? Why do we need two versions of Shoha, or both Guren and Senei? Shoha II could be a trait that adds AoE falloff damage to Shoha. Senei could be a trait that buffs the single-target damage of Guren, with Guren just adjusted however it needs to be in terms of potency to compensate.

I'm also still feeling the sting of the loss of Seigan. Seeing how Chiten works in PvP, maybe we could try replacing Third Eye with a PvE version of it? Blocking attacks with Third Eye almost feels like a waste of time because it's only going to block 10% of a hit that's already going to hurt because we're a fairly squishy class. If we have to lose our "counterattack button" then can we at least have our "parry button" modified with a "counterattack" effect? It doesn't have to work exactly the same as the PvP Chiten, but Chiten has a cooler animation and feels more impactful to use. Third Eye is just kinda...there.

Bottom line, SAM just doesn't feel good to play right now. What drew me to it initially was that it's got the elegant bladework of a Jedi Knight, combined with big finishing moves that dish out huge spikes of damage. Midare Setsugekka blew my mind the first time I used it, because it felt every bit as impactful as its animation looked. The time spent going through the sequence of GCDs that led up to filling my whole Sen gauge felt meaningful. I no longer find myself eagerly looking forward to that magical moment when my cooldowns line up and I know the next enemy is about to be annihilated by two Midares, two Namikiris, and a Senei/Shoha. Sure, they still look cool, but the big spikes of juicy direct crit damage are gone. They feel like WoW spenders now.

[Roxus]

Abbreviated.

Wholeheartedly agree. There are so many suggestions they could have used, you can click a samurai post at random and they will offer a solution. And those solutions aren't even that different from each other in any community. It's almost as if most of us understood the good and bad points of the job we love. There's been a lot of talk in General about the incompetence lately, and I echo their sentiment. The solution at this point is to become so loud they can hear through their hands covering their ears. I hope everyone doesn't give up until we get an actual response on all the current issues this game has.

[elioaiko]

This is an important bit. I think the major root of the SAM "spike" damage problem lies in how we're forced to dump everything into a two minute window instead of having it spaced out more evenly. The lows are much lower if you don't get those juicy direct crits but the high's are much higher if you do, so this creates that damage variance they are so concerned about. The addition of charges on Kaeshi and Meikyo just locked SAM into a 120s rotation instead of it's 60s rotation from ShB, and since every raid buff now falls in that same 120s cycle there is so much more damage to be gained when a SAM pools charges for raid buffs.

This. I just hate that they're being lazy about damage variances and are forcing all jobs to align in a 2 min burst window as if that will solve all their problems. It only makes it harder because now every job is competing for the best 2 min burst. I was drawn to SAM because of the consistent damage throughout (SB) and then it's being similar in ShB but EW has changed SAM into this job that revolves around a 2min and watching your Meikyo CD and making sure that you can get everything into your burst.

Like NIN's trick attack change, it was already aligning in their 2 min because trick is up every min but now they're just forcing it to line up and giving personal damage buffs. They're just taking all of the support dps jobs and making them in a selfish dps buffer hybrid and turning SAM (except BLM) into something that doesn't make sense.

I didn't play SB SAM for the huge boom every min, I played it because it's damage was sustained throughout and rewarding you with the boom when everything else lined up. I was even ok with ShB SAM but what it is now is a busy, messy rotation that isn't satisfying.

[Chimparzan]

just want to add my voice again, hope they revert the changes and at least nice to see all the good input from SAM on here.

[Roxus]

So there have been talks of changing Midare Setsugekka to a Multi-hit skill, similar to Dream Within a Dream. Some people seem open to the idea. Of course, all the suggestions given involve rolling back to 6.08 before changing Samurai further.

I'd like to add my own silly ideas (on top of incorporating some good ideas I've seen here), though it's mostly for fun while waiting for YoshiP's promised response.

Third Eye: Duration changed to 6 seconds. Changes to Higan on successful mitigation.
Higan: Grants a regen to self.
Seigan: Reintroduced. Now grants a Meditation stack on use. 55s CD.

Enhanced Tsubame-gaeshi: Removed
Enhanced Meikyo Shisui: Removed

Senei and Guren: Replaces Shinten and Kyuten when using Ikishoten.
Gyoten: Changed to allow use without a target. Dashes a set distance forward. 0 Cost outside of combat.
Meditate: (added) Grants and refreshes Fugetsu and Fuka periodically.
Ikishoten: (added) Changes to Ogi Namikiri on use.
Shoha: Shoha 2 merged into this skill with AOE fall off.
Tsubame-gaeshi: Changed to trait. Adds two extra attacks (lines) to Iaijutsus.

Hissatsu:Shinsoku: Weaponskill. 55s CD & 20(?) Kenki Cost. Sheathe your katana and concentrate, unleashing an upward strike followed by a side slash. Detonates Higanbana and grants 1 Meditation stack.
Hyosetsu: Your next Yukikaze will change to Hyosetsu after using Shoha. Upgraded Yukikaze with AOE falloff, does not require Hakaze.

It's definitely not made with any balance kept in mind. I also dislike the extra charges, so I made up some things that could replace them. Numbers would have to be adjusted accordingly, but the reasoning given by JP for Multi-hit attacks is so the numbers don't scale out of control. It also keeps to the theme of the naming conventions. At least that way, the Iaijutsus won't be hitting for the same as your regular rotation, which is frankly stupid.

In the end it's just for fun while we pass the time. Here's hoping to some news before the start of next week. Oh and most importantly, revert to 6.08 Samurai first and foremost. Have a good night.

[NotReallyMistral]

I gotta say, i really like the idea of senei/guren replacing shinten/kyuten on ikishoten. Reduces button bloat while still keeping that whole bit working as is and doesn't obstruct anything in terms of rotation. We already get Ikishoten before those two bigger skill so it wouldn't require much in restructuring in terms of when we get the skills. Also, I vote for that Shoha change too since that is the most natural change they could've done when they introduced shoha 2. Still boggles the mind on why it's a separate button.

Also, i hope they don't keep sam at this state. Hope they say more about this soon because right now, pvp sam feels more like a sam (with the big skills having that ooomph factor in terms of damage) than pve sam with our wet noodle sticks.

[Edweena]

I gotta say, i really like the idea of senei/guren replacing shinten/kyuten on ikishoten. Reduces button bloat while still keeping that whole bit working as is and doesn't obstruct anything in terms of rotation. We already get Ikishoten before those two bigger skill so it wouldn't require much in restructuring in terms of when we get the skills.

I mocked up an graphic for it a while back so if anyone hasn't seen, this it visualized

Spread the idea, the devs should absolutely make the change, as it really doesn't have any negatives to it.
(Warrior already does it lol, imagine if inner chaos was it's own button, instead of replacing fell cleave under nascent chaos, how awful)
There's very little I can say anymore so just really want the idea to become more widespread lol.

Merging Senei and Guren is still a valid solution (albeit a lazy one), but this is even better than that since it removes 2 buttons instead of one, and removes drifting on the Ikishoten / Guren & Senei CD's.
It lowers the skill floor, but maintains the skill ceiling since those at the ceiling already are unlikely to let cd's drift.
Oh and this is excellent for making way for a new odd or even minute CD they could introduce next expansions if they wanted to as well.

[Roxus]

Morning all. Today's hot topic in JP has been usage of controllers. I think for every one complaint about the amount of skills there were, another 4 were there to say otherwise. Continued discussion of Multi-hits and the reversion to 6.08. Emphasis on the strength of Iaijutsu being too low. AOE being a detriment in Instanced Dungeon. It's been steady feedback, so I hope we can do the same.

To the post above, yup! I saw your idea and liked it, it's a far better solution than whatever SE is trying to do.

[SiriusBreeze]

Going to try and boost the signal of consolidating Shinten/Kyuten with the Shoha series abilities as put forth in another topic. Essentially upgrading Shinten/Kyuten to Shoha 1/2 when you have enough sword meditation stacks (with the kenki price of Shinten/Kyuten for better potency). This would turn some our most boring abilities (Shinten/Kyuten/Shoha) into an interesting mechanic where we attempt to convert as many Shintens into Shohas and justifies Shoha 2's existence (Kyuten is a circle AOE like Shoha 2, turning Kyuten into Gurren which is a line AOE just seems off). I'm okay with consolidating Senei and Gurren by just having Gurrens initial potency buffed to Senei levels.

[xAFROx]

Making shinten/kyuten connected to shoha might be a neat idea. I was recently thinking there could be a revision to meditation stacks as a whole with how many jobs are trying to emulate FF6 characters now.

Monk got blitz like Sabin. Machinist has the tools Edgar uses. I think there might have been a few more things, but I can't recall at the moment.

But with that in mind, I thought maybe Meditation could stack up to a total of 8. In a similar manner to how Sen alters the Iaijutsu button and it casts in a manner reminiscent of Cyan's sword tech from FF6, what if it had a more overt reference in the kit through Meditation stacks building to 8, changing the ability used like the iai button. 3 minimum gets a single target, 5 makes it an aoe with a large falloff and then 8 would make it a super aoe with a small falloff.
(Not a balanced thought, it came to me an hour ago)

But I definitely think SAM should get the WAR treatment on ability procs like Infuriate making Inner Chaos and such. SAM should do something with Ikishoten/Ogi Namikiri and Senei/Guren

Third Eye - Open Eyes would be nice to have back, too. It doesn't need to take up extra buttons either. Open Eyes can turn Third Eye into Merciful Eyes and change Shinten into Seigan. Doesn't sound like a hard thing to do