Machinist class is dead

[Kitfox]

Yeah makes perfect sense, MCH should be better in everything all the time.

Yes. Because MCH doesn't have utility, BRD and DNC do. MCH should do most damage, in all situations. And that's not even a hot take: BLM exists.

[Cyd3l]

Yes. Because MCH doesn't have utility, BRD and DNC do. MCH should do most damage, in all situations. And that's not even a hot take: BLM exists.

Im glad you're not a game designer.

[ShimAoki]

I mean Kitfox isn't wrong, if your only selling point is your damage and throughout the course of a fight the other two roles in your tier are doing more, how is that fair?

The other roles damage is reliant on party members but even on a personal level bards not doing to bad right now, but Machinist is your own ability to play the job, so why should is be less than the other two? That makes no sense, litterally do you think blm would be picked if it did less damage than rdm or smn? Of course not, the other casters have way more use with their utility in that scenario.

As it is Mch has very little going for it, most statics will take a bard or dancer over mch any day of the week.

I would also make the comparison with Sam in its respective tier but 6.1 did that for me. They're suffering the mch issue right now. Should Sam be the lowest dps for melees? Of course not, its selling point is that its a pure dps.

Phys ranged is the worst role to balance, ShB had dancer on top, so far endwalker favours bard, 3 expansions of being shoved in a shoebox will ofcourse undoubtably upset the mch community, especially if your job was butchered, but you told yourself "Its okay, the ShB changes are a great foundation to be built apon. I'm sure SE will do a great job expanding on these systems, and adding a bit more depth or complexity to the job" only to be told your job was finished, and the abilitys given to you were copy and pastes, whilst they didn't address the issues that is present with the current itteration of the job.

I'm just glad we have people telling us to shut up because of mobility tax when all jobs can have 95% or higher uptime in any fight SE has designed in recent years, it's depressing lmao.

So let us voice our genuine concerns with the job and the onslaught of butchering of jobs, that has followed since the mch rework. The job has issues, the devs clearly don't know what direction to take it, at this point they need to do something and people like you aren't helping the situation by ignoring it. If this continues then every job in the game will be in a similar position, mch was first, somehow they made dancer even easier, sam nin and drg are about to be "reworked".

The best we can hope for is for the devs to implement some of the ideas pvp mch has so that we can have some semblance of rewarding gameplay rather than a low damage mess with a low skill cap, thats currently being excluded from pfs on crystal when the comunity has dubbed it as the pf job.

Mch unfortunately is a joke right now. I just hope more jobs don't suffer what we're going through like sam right now. We we're the first job in a wave of "reworks".

[TabrisOmbrelame]

Snip...

You have a point.

If the damage output was the only "selling point" against BRD and DNC, then MCH should do way more damage. Sadly, we all know that it's not how it's going. If only we could put some "Potency" on those utility buff from BRD/DNC, just to see in number the difference against MCH. But again, BRD and DNC are dependant of their party and if the party is bad, so is the Rdps of BRD/DNC. Therefore, calculating how many DPS MCH should do isn't a easy task...

When you talk about the SAM, you say it should be a pure DPS, and that's also true. If we look to the DPS role, each type (Melee, Ranged, Magic) have their "BLMish" Alter-Ego. SAM for Melee, MCH for Ranged. Samourai was on top tier DPS before 6.1, but the nerf they took was a hard shot into the face, completely destroying the damage output for them. Even if the removal of Kaiten wasn't welcomed by a majority of the community, I see an opportunity to make change to the class on a long-term time. 6.2 could be a patch for the Samourai rework, as it was seen for the monk in 5.2 ShB (If i'm not mistaken).

The only thing SE can make to bring DPS up by a significant amount of the MCH is to add cast-time ability, and therefore, cutting the mobility. Samourai have casting hability, and casting for a melee isn't something we are used to and this cut the mobility.

Adapting PvP-like ability into the PvE version should be something doable. Maybe having to switch between the Drill, poison, Anchor and Chainsaw can be something usable, as well as the sniper who could be a huge finisher.

[Ayden]

I wonder why SE has been so conservative when it comes to adjusting MCH's DPS. After the outcry over the minuscule buff in 6.08, SE has kinda predictably done it again in 6.1. Why is it bad for MCH to have DPS number closer to melees? Why is 2 melees/2 casters an option but not 2 physical ranges? My personal opinion is that the 4th dps slot should be open to all melees, blm or mch.

[EdwinLi]

I wonder why SE has been so conservative when it comes to adjusting MCH's DPS. After the outcry over the minuscule buff in 6.08, SE has kinda predictably done it again in 6.1. Why is it bad for MCH to have DPS number closer to melees? Why is 2 melees/2 casters an option but not 2 physical ranges? My personal opinion is that the 4th dps slot should be open to all melees, blm or mch.

it is a general fear in game designing to have range DPS outperform or perform equally to Melee DPS with little consequences in almost any game. Partly due to how if a Range DPS outperforms or is equal to a Melee DPS, it lowers the amount of people needing and wanting to play melee DPS beyond the challenge of also being in melee range.

Many past games generally had this issue when range DPS that have little consequence to their performance in anyways outshines a melee dps or are equal to DPS because of the mentality of "why bother beyond just the challenge of being in melee range when you can do the same in range combat and have less risks?"

Don't get me started on how bad things gets in certain games when Meta gets involved between choosing a Range Job that does equal or more damage than a Melee Job. Those tend to go down the hole of Range Jobs being favored and Melee Job only played if you have ultra instincts level of dodging skills to lower risk of losing rDPS from DPS role players dying.

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That aside, the basic concern now is mostly DPS increase for MCH do fit into the role it has been given as the Pure DPS Physical Range job compared to Dancer and Bard which focus partly on maintaining their party buffs.


I say this before in past post but I do see some ideals that can work for MCH from the Blitz job from Dungeon Fighter online.

One such concept is the Bunker wall placement. It can act like MCH's leyline but focus on staying behind it to maintain DPS boost and a damage reduction buff while having a skill that allows MCH to redeploy it during moments when he/she does not need to move around the map often. Not to mention have additional skills that utilize that deployable Bunker wall to act as a 2nd protection from heavy attacks for the party or increase the damage of the MCH even more.

Another addition I think they should utilize is the concept of some kind of Protocol mechanic to improve the Queen's functions. Make them like OGCD skills that instant summons the Queen to perform certain attacks which players can weave into their combos. That or they use each Protocol to summon different drones based on the chess pieces we don't use yet being Knight and pawns to perform certain buffs and attacks

Speaking of Queen, improvements for her can be done to remove the 3 to 4 second summon process. Instead of going through that digitalization summon animation, the Queen should just be summoned by falling from the sky either to punch the target the moment she is summoned with a super hero landing or rider kick them so the Queen can get right into the action instead of the long delay she has currently.

Ammo system can be reintroduced as energy for the Sniper rifle skills to act as MCH strong OGCD attacks so players have to consider what type of Sniper Rifle skills to use if they want to either perform strong AoE on multiple enemies or focus on Single target stronger hits.

Flamethrower has been just bad since release in 4.0. I always felt it will be a better skill as a DoT debuff skill to act as the main DoT skill for MCH while Bioblaster act as a secondary DoT skill for situational moments involving kill large numbers of mobs since Bioblaster shares cooldown with Drill.

[CKNovel]

Yes. Because MCH doesn't have utility, BRD and DNC do. MCH should do most damage, in all situations. And that's not even a hot take: BLM exists.

Please edit to add BRD/DNC mobility.

Why would SE design only around 1 piece of content? Furthermore the content the least amount of players participate in. You're basically saying its ok for BRD and DNC to suck in solo content, group content, content with adds, pretty much ALL CONTENT that isn't savage. And hey they suck in savage too unless the rest of your party are all great players. Yeah makes perfect sense, MCH should be better in everything all the time. Besides MCH, DNC and BRD can all clear savage as is with plenty of time to spare on enrage so DPS isn't an issue for clearing content.

There is no need to balance jobs for dungeons, normal and r24.
You can die 30 times or afk, as long as your team doesn't kick you, you will clear the content.
It's not a PvP game where a difficult character/job would be worthless in lower elo but an auto win in the end of very high elo players. High elo players would want a nerf, but that would make the character/job worthless for lower elo players.

If you balance all job based on their skill floor, their skill ceiling would be uneven. And that's how you create an unbalanced meta.

Finally, it's time to stop with "all job can clear" logic.
If all jobs can clear, then there is no issue with raising MCH DPS. Following that logic you could bump MCH top DPS and that wouldn't matter because all jobs could still clear.

[ShimAoki]

There is no need to balance jobs for dungeons, normal and r24.
You can die 30 times or afk, as long as your team doesn't kick you, you will clear the content.
It's not a PvP game where a difficult character/job would be worthless in lower elo but an auto win in the end of very high elo players. High elo players would want a nerf, but that would make the character/job worthless for lower elo players.

If you balance all job based on their skill floor, their skill ceiling would be uneven. And that's how you create an unbalanced meta.

Finally, it's time to stop with "all job can clear" logic.
If all jobs can clear, then there is no issue with raising MCH DPS. Following that logic you could bump MCH top DPS and that wouldn't matter because all jobs could still clear.

Based, I agree all jobs can clear but its a bit wonky when pfs are starting to exclude jobs in extreme content, I mean its extreme for crying out loud, its not exactly the hardest content in the game. If this trend follows to savage content, then SE will be forced to do something, its unfair.

It also doesn't help that player's constantly ask "Can mch compete in the new ultimate day 1" or "will it be a major disadvantage". I guess SE is okay with this though as they refused, 2 patch cycles in a row to make the nessassary changes, yet they happily buffed dancer by 5% in 6.08. maybe next patch our next 2.4% will make us at least somewhat wanted by the player base, as it is I'm lucky I met my ultimate group before and have already cleared content with them, because if the numbers are anything to go by on paper, I probably wouldn't be invited.

[E-Zekiel]

If you enjoy the gameplay of a class, just play it and have fun. Why let numbers determine whether you're having fun playing or not?
Does having slightly higher numbers make the gameplay more fun?

Not that its wrong to complain or give feedback and want your class to get the same treatment as others. But wouldn't you be happier if you just stop worrying about the numbers and just play the class you enjoy to the best of your ability?

The gameplay did change. I'm not a big min-maxer and that aspect of the samurai changes are whatever to me. The bigger thing is the feel of the class is terrible now compared to what it was. Setting up a combo chain into a big bursty hit, and further amplifying it with one of the most badass sword flourishes in the game was SO MUCH FUN for me.

[ShimAoki]

If you enjoy the gameplay of a class, just play it and have fun. Why let numbers determine whether you're having fun playing or not?
Does having slightly higher numbers make the gameplay more fun?

Not that its wrong to complain or give feedback and want your class to get the same treatment as others. But wouldn't you be happier if you just stop worrying about the numbers and just play the class you enjoy to the best of your ability?

Because I play on a savage and ultimate level and having to play at 100% (not the best player, not the worst) just to keep up with my party and not feel like I'm wasting a party slot in competitive content when other roles would do the job way better, but I've invested 6 years into a job and deeply love its aethetic. I wish I could stop worrying about the numbers, but this issue has persisited for years and every rework you tell yourself "finally they have a direction, they'll fix it" only to be exactly where they reworked the job from thus making the rework redundant. My copium is immesserable. I've said it before but I also don't want other jobs getting butchered in a similar direction, because simplisity vs damage output is an issue the devs didn't think about when not giving us utility to compensate for how easy it is now, now don't get me wrong, current mch is fun to play, but it feels like a template that they didn't expand on, and instead told us that they made the job with 0 progressions in mind for future content, thus defeating that rewarding excitment of getting through the start of an expansion, to experience the new skills, hoping that they meaningfully expand upon the simplisity of the current version, only to get copy and pasted skills, which turn our identity more into a drill dumper than a machinist. Drill is a cool skill, or at least it was when it had the numbers to back it up, I understand the need for the stat squish but it felt like they removed the potency drill had, and distributed it between 3 drills rather than have them feel powerful. I love 2 reassembles but the issue with this skill is the same thing removing kaiten was, kaiten was a gauge spender, it rewarded you from using it in burst windows. Reassemble is more of a use on drill cooldown skill. Theres 0 complexity to enjoy in min maxing the job. I would personally love just a little more depth. Especially when they release RPR and RPR is you but better, you cannot convince me that RPR isn't just melee mch with utility from how it plays. Enshroud is a way more fun wildfire window. For me, RPR showed me that the systems in place could be expanded upon but just weren't.