Machinist class is dead

[CKNovel]

As of today:

As of today:
Dungeons are 4 players content.
If we remove 4 players from the party, of course rDPS of DNC/BRD will be lower. Using 4 player content is nonsense just like using 24 man raid content.
Extremes are quite biased. With add phase on the 2 first and a long downtime on the first. Yet I can't explain the difference between P1S and Endsinger EX, both are full uptime content but both present different data. What's even weirder is that P1S often ends at 6:40~7:00 mark, in theory MCH should benefit the most from this kill time.
Maybe because it's been only a week, maybe we'll need more time, but there is a big discrepancy.
Normal raid are not optimized, it's normal that DNC and BRD will not get very high because most players moved onto savage. Only non-raiders still play normal mode.

It's normal that MCH is leagues ahead aDPS and nDPS wise, that's like comparing a MCH to a DNC that doesn't dance.

Savage raids are the best metric to take in account simply because that's where DPS counts the most.
And it's exactly where it counts the most that it's in the shadow of the two other ranged that also offer more utility tool.

[Cyd3l]

As of today:
Dungeons are 4 players content.
If we remove 4 players from the party, of course rDPS of DNC/BRD will be lower. Using 4 player content is nonsense just like using 24 man raid content.
Extremes are quite biased. With add phase on the 2 first and a long downtime on the first. Yet I can't explain the difference between P1S and Endsinger EX, both are full uptime content but both present different data. What's even weirder is that P1S often ends at 6:40~7:00 mark, in theory MCH should benefit the most from this kill time.
Normal raid are not optimized, it's normal that DNC and BRD will not get very high because most players moved onto savage. Only non-raiders still play normal mode.

Savage raids are the best metric to take in account simply because that's where DPS counts the most...

Why would SE design only around 1 piece of content? Furthermore the content the least amount of players participate in. You're basically saying its ok for BRD and DNC to suck in solo content, group content, content with adds, pretty much ALL CONTENT that isn't savage. And hey they suck in savage too unless the rest of your party are all great players. Yeah makes perfect sense, MCH should be better in everything all the time. Besides MCH, DNC and BRD can all clear savage as is with plenty of time to spare on enrage so DPS isn't an issue for clearing content.

Normal Raids are not optimized, yes probably true. BRD and DNC need every thing they do to be optimized or they suck, that's how buffs work. I certainly don't get optimized groups in everything I do. MCH doesn't need this, they just worry about their own performance which is why they are ahead in everything outside the most optimized groups. But hey even Savage among 90% of all savage players MCH does better. Only when you reach the top 10% does BRD and DNC surpass MCH. It takes a whole party of perfect execution in a perfect scenario with perfect buff windows for DNC and BRD to pull ahead. MCH again doesn't need anything special, you don't rely on 7 other people executing perfectly to perform well.

Imagine starting a new class and being told. So you can play DNC or BRD but keep in mind you will be the worst DPS in all content until you hit savage and find a group of 7 other amazing players who never make mistakes and once you do you'll shoot 1-3% higher than MCH to become the 2nd or 3rd worst class. Or you can play MCH do great dmg in all of the games content including savage until you reach the highest level possible at which point you might drop 1-3%. You guys may not care about 99% of the games content but the majority of players do.

I really wish we could have had a discussion about fixing the range role and making MCH, DNC and BRD desired but its clear all MCH players want to do is be the best phys-ranged option for all scenarios making BRD and DNC pointless.

[Kitfox]

Yeah makes perfect sense, MCH should be better in everything all the time.

Yes. Because MCH doesn't have utility, BRD and DNC do. MCH should do most damage, in all situations. And that's not even a hot take: BLM exists.

[Cyd3l]

Yes. Because MCH doesn't have utility, BRD and DNC do. MCH should do most damage, in all situations. And that's not even a hot take: BLM exists.

Im glad you're not a game designer.

[ShimAoki]

I mean Kitfox isn't wrong, if your only selling point is your damage and throughout the course of a fight the other two roles in your tier are doing more, how is that fair?

The other roles damage is reliant on party members but even on a personal level bards not doing to bad right now, but Machinist is your own ability to play the job, so why should is be less than the other two? That makes no sense, litterally do you think blm would be picked if it did less damage than rdm or smn? Of course not, the other casters have way more use with their utility in that scenario.

As it is Mch has very little going for it, most statics will take a bard or dancer over mch any day of the week.

I would also make the comparison with Sam in its respective tier but 6.1 did that for me. They're suffering the mch issue right now. Should Sam be the lowest dps for melees? Of course not, its selling point is that its a pure dps.

Phys ranged is the worst role to balance, ShB had dancer on top, so far endwalker favours bard, 3 expansions of being shoved in a shoebox will ofcourse undoubtably upset the mch community, especially if your job was butchered, but you told yourself "Its okay, the ShB changes are a great foundation to be built apon. I'm sure SE will do a great job expanding on these systems, and adding a bit more depth or complexity to the job" only to be told your job was finished, and the abilitys given to you were copy and pastes, whilst they didn't address the issues that is present with the current itteration of the job.

I'm just glad we have people telling us to shut up because of mobility tax when all jobs can have 95% or higher uptime in any fight SE has designed in recent years, it's depressing lmao.

So let us voice our genuine concerns with the job and the onslaught of butchering of jobs, that has followed since the mch rework. The job has issues, the devs clearly don't know what direction to take it, at this point they need to do something and people like you aren't helping the situation by ignoring it. If this continues then every job in the game will be in a similar position, mch was first, somehow they made dancer even easier, sam nin and drg are about to be "reworked".

The best we can hope for is for the devs to implement some of the ideas pvp mch has so that we can have some semblance of rewarding gameplay rather than a low damage mess with a low skill cap, thats currently being excluded from pfs on crystal when the comunity has dubbed it as the pf job.

Mch unfortunately is a joke right now. I just hope more jobs don't suffer what we're going through like sam right now. We we're the first job in a wave of "reworks".

[TabrisOmbrelame]

Snip...

You have a point.

If the damage output was the only "selling point" against BRD and DNC, then MCH should do way more damage. Sadly, we all know that it's not how it's going. If only we could put some "Potency" on those utility buff from BRD/DNC, just to see in number the difference against MCH. But again, BRD and DNC are dependant of their party and if the party is bad, so is the Rdps of BRD/DNC. Therefore, calculating how many DPS MCH should do isn't a easy task...

When you talk about the SAM, you say it should be a pure DPS, and that's also true. If we look to the DPS role, each type (Melee, Ranged, Magic) have their "BLMish" Alter-Ego. SAM for Melee, MCH for Ranged. Samourai was on top tier DPS before 6.1, but the nerf they took was a hard shot into the face, completely destroying the damage output for them. Even if the removal of Kaiten wasn't welcomed by a majority of the community, I see an opportunity to make change to the class on a long-term time. 6.2 could be a patch for the Samourai rework, as it was seen for the monk in 5.2 ShB (If i'm not mistaken).

The only thing SE can make to bring DPS up by a significant amount of the MCH is to add cast-time ability, and therefore, cutting the mobility. Samourai have casting hability, and casting for a melee isn't something we are used to and this cut the mobility.

Adapting PvP-like ability into the PvE version should be something doable. Maybe having to switch between the Drill, poison, Anchor and Chainsaw can be something usable, as well as the sniper who could be a huge finisher.

[CKNovel]

Yes. Because MCH doesn't have utility, BRD and DNC do. MCH should do most damage, in all situations. And that's not even a hot take: BLM exists.

Please edit to add BRD/DNC mobility.

Why would SE design only around 1 piece of content? Furthermore the content the least amount of players participate in. You're basically saying its ok for BRD and DNC to suck in solo content, group content, content with adds, pretty much ALL CONTENT that isn't savage. And hey they suck in savage too unless the rest of your party are all great players. Yeah makes perfect sense, MCH should be better in everything all the time. Besides MCH, DNC and BRD can all clear savage as is with plenty of time to spare on enrage so DPS isn't an issue for clearing content.

There is no need to balance jobs for dungeons, normal and r24.
You can die 30 times or afk, as long as your team doesn't kick you, you will clear the content.
It's not a PvP game where a difficult character/job would be worthless in lower elo but an auto win in the end of very high elo players. High elo players would want a nerf, but that would make the character/job worthless for lower elo players.

If you balance all job based on their skill floor, their skill ceiling would be uneven. And that's how you create an unbalanced meta.

Finally, it's time to stop with "all job can clear" logic.
If all jobs can clear, then there is no issue with raising MCH DPS. Following that logic you could bump MCH top DPS and that wouldn't matter because all jobs could still clear.

[ShimAoki]

There is no need to balance jobs for dungeons, normal and r24.
You can die 30 times or afk, as long as your team doesn't kick you, you will clear the content.
It's not a PvP game where a difficult character/job would be worthless in lower elo but an auto win in the end of very high elo players. High elo players would want a nerf, but that would make the character/job worthless for lower elo players.

If you balance all job based on their skill floor, their skill ceiling would be uneven. And that's how you create an unbalanced meta.

Finally, it's time to stop with "all job can clear" logic.
If all jobs can clear, then there is no issue with raising MCH DPS. Following that logic you could bump MCH top DPS and that wouldn't matter because all jobs could still clear.

Based, I agree all jobs can clear but its a bit wonky when pfs are starting to exclude jobs in extreme content, I mean its extreme for crying out loud, its not exactly the hardest content in the game. If this trend follows to savage content, then SE will be forced to do something, its unfair.

It also doesn't help that player's constantly ask "Can mch compete in the new ultimate day 1" or "will it be a major disadvantage". I guess SE is okay with this though as they refused, 2 patch cycles in a row to make the nessassary changes, yet they happily buffed dancer by 5% in 6.08. maybe next patch our next 2.4% will make us at least somewhat wanted by the player base, as it is I'm lucky I met my ultimate group before and have already cleared content with them, because if the numbers are anything to go by on paper, I probably wouldn't be invited.