Machinist class is dead

[CKNovel]

That makes no sense, why should a high personal DPS class do more rDPS than classes designed to provide rDPS. You already do way more DPS than Bard and Dancer.

And if you bothered to check rankings you'd see MCH is doing more rDPS than Bard and Dancer in most content, Alliance raids, Normal Raids, Dungeons, Extremes and even Savage until you hit the high percentile players where it switches to Bard and then DNC at 90%+.?

Buffs stacks. Every job is now on 120s burst window and you want the most you can have.
Dancer also have healing and shields that can make the difference. MCH only got DPS.
Then, remember that each buff/nerf/gear progression also impact the rDPS jobs.

Finally, let me remind you that BLM is a pure DPS, RDM and SMN are support jobs but no one is complaining that the pure rDPS job is doing that much damage compared to SMN&RDM.

Using 24 man raid, dungeons and normal raid as a metric... People go in for fun, not for performances. You'll never get in an optimized party you could have no casters or people not playing very well. Unless you match with 7 other raiders, you'll never get a good party for your buffs. It's also true for normal raids. Dungeons are 4 man content, less people using your buffs means less rDPS.
You can't look at lower percentile, under 75 percentile contains people getting K.O. or not fully geared. 90+ mostly contains people that know their jobs, are geared and don't get KO.

TL;DR:
MCH brings only damage to the group.
DNC brings damage and shield/healing.
MCH doesn't have anything to compete with that support, it should get something to compete.

On top of that, it's competing for the ranged role. There is no problem having 2 casters or 2 melees, but having 2 ranged is very bad.

Even if I agree that MCH is still lacking in term of DPS, I can understand why it will never go far beyond Bard and Dancer too, It's not a hard job to play with, unlike the Monk who's really hard to master.

MNK has been dumbed down since 6.0. I'll also let you discover Dragon Kick rotation.

[Cyd3l]

Dancer also have healing and shields that can make the difference. MCH only got DPS.
Then, remember that each buff/nerf/gear progression also impact the rDPS jobs.

Finally, let me remind you that BLM is a pure DPS, RDM and SMN are support jobs but no one is complaining that the pure rDPS job is doing that much damage compared to SMN&RDM.

Using 24 man raid, dungeons and normal raid as a metric... People go in for fun, not for performances..........

Yes Buffs and burst windows are 120 sec cycles and having more is good, but if you only bring buff classes and no high personal DPS classes the benefit of those buffs are lessened. DMG Buffs are more effective on BLM, SAM, than they would be on a RDM or a DNC. So you don't want to ignore the high personal DPS classes.

BLM, RDM, and SMN are entirely different because the classes don't have the same mobility limitations. SMN is practically no different than physRanged for mobility, RDM only has to cast every other spell, BLM has far more restrictive movement than either those two classes while hard casting. Turn MCH into a turret class that has to hunker down to DPS and you may have an argument there.

You also omitted MCH has the same shield BRD and DNC.

Extremes, Dungeons, Normal Raids and Alliance raids are part of the game at level 90 and impact players experiences. The majority of players actually. 10% of the playerbase does savage content, and of that you want to ignore 99% of savage experiences to tune everything for the top 1%? That seems like a horrible business model. This isnt a competitive E-sport game. Im sure the devs want to make the experience enjoyable for as many players at as many levels as they can. Using savage content among top players is important but its not the only metric that matters.

And by that same logic you want us to ignore all progression runs, wipes, and runs where people get KO'd or are not fully geared too? Well then all that "utility" you claim DNC has doesn't matter either. Curing waltz 300 potency heal every 1 min is not needed if everyone is executing mechanics perfectly. so DNC brings nothing. RDM and SMN rez isnt needed outside of prog runs either so they shouldn't be taxed for it too.

So which is it? Does progression or un-optimal runs matter in which utility should be taken into account or do they not matter in which case utility has no baring on DPS during optimal play. Because there is no content in the game where Curing Waltz is necessary to complete it.

MCH has issues, but the entire range role has issues and i'd rather the Devs focus on making our role valuable than flipping between which of the 3 phys ranged roles are people reluctantly forced to bring with. Cause most the changes requested here aren't about finding a spot for MCH its about making MCH the only phys ranged worth playing.

[TabrisOmbrelame]

You can't just boost a class without taking into account the "end-tier" player, as well as casual. That's just fact.

Imagine a patch note where a class (no matter which one) take a 5% overall DPS increase. Now let's say that class was at 10.000 dps (with everything fully optimal, stuff and rotation) before the patch.

By taking that into account, you have boosted the player who use this classe extremely well by 500 dps. But what about those who don't master the class this well, or don't have optimal equipment ? Of course they will gain 5% too, but 5% of a lesser value, in which case the gap between good and bad player will be growing wider.

In order to make adjustement, it's necessary to take into account every kind of player, otherwise it can make absurd tweek on classe that will lead to a class being unplayed, or Overly played because it's completely broken.

As for the utility of classes, I have a different point of view, especially about RDM/SMN. They have a Raise spell, that's a huge support to begin with, as it allow your healer to keep their mana up in case they have to heal through a raid wide damage or any other mecanics encountered by the team. Maybe you do lesser damage overall, but you have some "insurance" that allow you to raise one of your party member almost for free. A raise on a healer at a critical team, so he can LB3 heal right after to make everyone on their feet, this can be a complete game changer, where a BLM wouldn't be able to do that and just witness his death, forcing him to redo the boss till the beginning. I've seen countless raid (Either Extreme or Savage) that were saved by those raise.

So for the question : Does utility mean less DPS ?

Answer : Yes. Otherwise, All classes of the game will have the exact same potency on each spell and all the DPS will look the same. This can be true for Healer and Tanks as well.

Utility does have it's role in affecting DPS on classes, but I think that the complexity of a classes should have a role in that Too. MCH is extremely easy to play, You have plenty of offensive stuff and mobility that allow you to move freely wherever you want. You even have 100% Uptime (In Theory) because you can attack up to 25 Yalms... Many thing must be take into account before buffing or nerfing a classe

[Remarus]

Which is why we are arguing for competitiveness within our role, not in the entire spectrum of classes. Again, no one is arguing that MCH should be doing SAM or BLM levels of damage. That would be silly. One's in melee (despite the fact that every static uses melee uptime strats and, as someone who has tanked this tier, realizes how absolutely braindead uptime is for melee right now), and the other has insane cast times and turret style gameplay. But if BRD and DNC (both of whom are both more mobile with DNC's dashes and BRDs large disengage, and have 100% potential uptime themselves) are bringing utility to the raid, and pulling higher rDPS, then what's the point of the 'selfish' phys ranged class? Their only utility is their DPS, if it's poor at the top end, then it's going to be left out of groups. We already saw plenty of "NO MCH" pfinder groups last patch and they're popping up again.

As the thread title says, at its current function, MCH is a dead class. We don't bring enough DPS to be considered over the other two Phys Ranged to make up for their utility, and we don't bring any utility of our own aside from Tactician, which every dps class has in some way or another at varying effectiveness (Addle, Feint, Shield Samba, Troub).

[ShimAoki]

I am full of copium that the Machinist posts will be seen.

[Hanayumi]

Curious would folks enjoy mch if they slapped huge dmg on it but gave its gcds the slow walk cast like it has in pvp?

[ShimAoki]

I would for sure.

[darcstar62]

On top of that, it's competing for the ranged role. There is no problem having 2 casters or 2 melees, but having 2 ranged is very bad.

It's been pretty standard to see farm parties that lock the 4th dps to caster/melee, but even after the 6.1 "buff," I've started seeing farm parties lock the ranged slot to DNC/BRD only. If MCH wasn't dead before, I think this confirms it.

[D6Damager]

I think if they are unwilling to buff damage or add comparable support...why not make the job be the 'debuff' job? Add gadgets that hamper/hinder the enemy etc. Then it would be unique and offer something.

[Silver-Strider]

BLM, RDM, and SMN are entirely different because the classes don't have the same mobility limitations. SMN is practically no different than physRanged for mobility, RDM only has to cast every other spell, BLM has far more restrictive movement than either those two classes while hard casting. Turn MCH into a turret class that has to hunker down to DPS and you may have an argument there.

DNC has En Avant for extra mobility making it the most mobile of the Ranged. SMN is the most mobile of the casters since the greater majority of its rotation are instant casts, while also having a gap closer.

BRD is slightly less mobile, with only Repelling Shot as extra mobility. RDM has less mobility than SMN with only instant casts every other spell while having a gap closer/disengage. Both BRD and RDM have higher damage than their counterpart of DNC and SMN.

MCH is the least mobile of the ranged jobs, having 0 mobility tools at all. BLM has fewer mobility tools than either RDM or SMN and has higher damage to compensate. MCH does NOT have more damage than BRD or DNC though.

You also omitted MCH has the same shield BRD and DNC.

Addle exists and serves the same purpose as MCH/BRD/DNCs mitigation buffs. They're role actions in all but name