If you continue to dumb down the game, you will lose half your player base

[TaleraRistain]

I've been there and done that. Failed enrage timers are generally caused by low dps output to begin with being paired with DPS players also dying to mechanics making that low output even lower. Having healers DPS just provides a small amount of wiggle room for the DPS to players to be lackluster provided the healer isn't ignoring healing duties to focus on their dps parse. Something that would happen far more often if they added more to healer job dps kits. This I feel is caused by NA culture trying to turn as many things as possible into a speed run.

As the guy you replied to said. One of the issue's I see frequently is healers only wanting to play with pro level players because randoms are too much work when they eat mechanics and need additional heals then when they get their party of pro players who only take damage from unavoidable roomwide AoE's they complain about being bored because they're only using 2-3 spells.

This. I see people complaining all they do is spam Stone and I think "Do you queue with randoms? Because it doesn't sound like you do". Or if they do they deliberately don't heal because people were people and picked up a vuln or took some damage or whatever. Pear-shaped groups are my favorite. They keep me so busy. They challenge my ability to be the glue that holds things together and I get to be a Big Damned Hero when I pull it off.

I do think those smoother DF groups are boring and would like more to do, though not dps. I'd rather get support abilities like buffs or debuffs or damage shields to maintain. It means I'd be even busier in pear-shaped groups but that's fine with me. Give me those plates to balance. I'm up to the challenge.

[HyoMinPark]

Yeah, I don't think it was designed around that. Rather, it's an expectation that's taken root in the modern MMO community for some reason. I get that a lot of healers are complaining that they have nothing to do, but these same people are likely raiding high end content with static groups of very competent players. Naturally, you're not going to have to heal very much in those scenarios. If you want to spend your time healing as a healer, then you need to run with random sprouts who constantly stand in stuff and collect vuln stacks. I can tell you that this makes for a much more engaging healing experience that doesn't even treat DPS as anything but filler. That's what the game is really designed around, but the high end community doesn't like to hear that. They want to run with the best of the best and then complain that the best of the best are too easily healed.

Even when you do content with a party full of people who have no idea what they’re doing, you are still primarily DPSing as a healer. There simply isn’t that much to heal, and most mechanics in non-Savage content are so non-threatening that you can eat them with multiple vulnerability stacks and it’s a toss up if they will actually hurt you. The most “DPS downtime” you’ll have is Day 1 of a new 24-man—and that’s only because you’ll be spending 8 seconds hard casting Raises the way Oprah hands out free stuff if the raid is well-designed (not looking at you, Void Ark). That’s the only time I actually feel engaged as a healer, and that’s been the case since late HW—before I ever started raiding.

The high-end only want “the best of the best” in very specific situations, such as barse runs or speeds where they already have a high goal in mind (e.g., oranges/pinks, fast kills). You’re completely missing the point of the complaints, which lie primarily in that healers are the only role that get more boring the more competent their party is. To the point that, in some fights, a second isn’t even needed. In a handful, they can be done without a healer at all.

This game does take healer DPS into account, and it has for several years now. Healers are basically support—and they do enough personal damage that, if you aren’t contributing to damage, you are griefing your party. There simply isn’t enough downtime to warrant healer DPS to not be considered meaningful.

I've been there and done that. Failed enrage timers are generally caused by low dps output to begin with being paired with DPS players also dying to mechanics making that low output even lower. Having healers DPS just provides a small amount of wiggle room for the DPS to players to be lackluster provided the healer isn't ignoring healing duties to focus on their dps parse. Something that would happen far more often if they added more to healer job dps kits. This I feel is caused by NA culture trying to turn as many things as possible into a speed run.

I don’t think you realize that two good healers already do more damage than the highest parsing DPS job right now. You’re severely underestimating the impact of healer DPS. As I said above, it is straight-up griefing if you are a healer and refuse to DPS. Healers simply do too much damage.

I also fail to see how giving healers more DPS options would prompt them to heal less. You do realize that healers hardly have much to heal right now as it is, right? Aside from the fact that they blow their oGCD resources first, which can be just as easily done doing a 1-2-3 or managing multiple DoTs as it can be spamming Glare/Malefic/Broil/Dosis now.

As the guy you replied to said. One of the issue's I see frequently is healers only wanting to play with pro level players because randoms are too much work when they eat mechanics and need additional heals then when they get their party of pro players who only take damage from unavoidable roomwide AoE's they complain about being bored because they're only using 2-3 spells.

Healers only tend to get annoyed by DPS eating stuff when they are constantly having to pick them off of the floor because the DPS don’t greed responsibly. When I have to waste my 2400 MP on raising them 5 times during a single encounter, it’s irksome. I’m a lot more lenient in new content and when people are learning—but when it’s obvious that the DPS is being carried, then I start to get annoyed. But I also just dislike carrying in general. Regardless of the role I’m on.

[Elesh]

<snip>
This game does take healer DPS into account, and it has for several years now. Healers are basically support—and they do enough personal damage that, if you aren’t contributing to damage, you are griefing your party. There simply isn’t enough downtime to warrant healer DPS to not be considered meaningful.

I don’t think you realize that two good healers already do more damage than the highest parsing DPS job right now. You’re severely underestimating the impact of healer DPS. As I said above, it is straight-up griefing if you are a healer and refuse to DPS. Healers simply do too much damage.

I also fail to see how giving healers more DPS options would prompt them to heal less. You do realize that healers hardly have much to heal right now as it is, right? Aside from the fact that they blow their oGCD resources first, which can be just as easily done doing a 1-2-3 or managing multiple DoTs as it can be spamming Glare/Malefic/Broil/Dosis now.



Healers only tend to get annoyed by DPS eating stuff when they are constantly having to pick them off of the floor because the DPS don’t greed responsibly. When I have to waste my 2400 MP on raising them 5 times during a single encounter, it’s irksome. I’m a lot more lenient in new content and when people are learning—but when it’s obvious that the DPS is being carried, then I start to get annoyed. But I also just dislike carrying in general. Regardless of the role I’m on.

My honest ideal would be to intertwine healing and dpsing together. And I don't mean like sage... a very basic example is how lilies work. By healing, I get to do damage. Great. Now that lilies are damage neutrla, I'm encouraged to find reasons to use those heals. That's a smart design. And I'd love if the opposite was true. Give me like a 'petal' bar that increases every time I do damage and when it fills up I can cast a high damage nuke spell that makes my next lily off the global cooldown. Or give me a proc on dealing damage that makes my next single target healing spell also apply regen.

Make doing damage and healing part of the same kit and intertwined in interesting ways. Reward me for dpsing with healing... and reward me for healing with dps. THAT would be my absolute ideal. (but at the same time, I do enjoy what I'm doing now because the fight design is really good so *shrugs*)

[UkcsAlias]

My honest ideal would be to intertwine healing and dpsing together.

Well, i think that dps on its own on a healer generaly already does fine. Its usualy however that the moment a healer has to heal, its considered a negative thing, and overhealing on that considered even worse. The DPS focus is too excessive here. Giving heals compensation in dps to make their heals reduce the effective dps loss is a good way to negate that.

However, the other way around isnt. DPSing should not reward with even more healing, as that would amplify the issue and push the focus more to dps again, instad of pushing the focus to healing. If healing always has the same output. DPS is simply just its reward for efficient healing. If DPS becomes a key aspect for healing, then you essentialy are forced into dpsing more. Consistent healing however should be the key aspect. You want to push a focus towards keeping teammates at high health instead of just avoiding them to get killed at best.

oGCD heals are on that a safe thing as they dont disrupt the dps, and are effective. But also the most dull. So yes, intertwining is the best way to handle this.

But i think some DPS abilities should be tied towards the HP of teammates. If their HP is lower, your dps also will.

[Ayer2015]

To me the PvP rework made all the jobs feel better with a stronger job identity. I would much rather see limited skills with stronger identity and impact than multiple of the same with low impact.

[MagicalChase]

To me the PvP rework made all the jobs feel better with a stronger job identity. I would much rather see limited skills with stronger identity and impact than multiple of the same with low impact.

hilarious they added kaiten to pvp

[Akibaws]

F to doubt.

[Snowborn]

The healer downtime argument isn't even worth engaging with. It's plainly silly. Without healer DPS every decently challenging raid would be impossible to finish at minimum ilvl.

But RE: the topic at hand. I like a simpler FFXIV. The kaiten removal was only bad because it makes the job feel less impressive. They can fix that without making people's APM higher.

FFXIV is only going to get simpler and that's a good thing to most people.

[HyoMinPark]

But RE: the topic at hand. I like a simpler FFXIV. The kaiten removal was only bad because it makes the job feel less impressive. [/b]They can fix that without making people's APM higher.[/b]

A higher APM would be seen as “too busy” by this community—thereby going against your “simpler FFXIV” design wishes.

[Shin96]

I'm always trying to understand why people want these jobs to be simplified. Sometimes it's the developers themselves.

People argue too much. We have millions of players and you can't realistically make things too complicated, but this route they're taking is.. unfortunate to say the least.

Hissatsu: Kaiten didn't need to be removed. In all my time of playing (approaching 7000 hours) no one ever complained about it. It reminds me alot of my favourite job DRK. Same treatment.

Speak up if you can. The DRK community got their fixes after 7 years. You guys have to work together instead of argue. We can't all be happy but there will be some agreement from everyone if you try.