Elementality – Fundamentals to Involve Chain/Sequential Elemental Casting; Complexity

[Shurrikhan]

At the same time, the hard part is that you don't have a real "theme" behind casters to build on. At least, not in the way you could open with Scorch if moving or Fireball if standing still, using Pyroblast when Hot Streak procs and if you end up with multiple DoT effects on the mob can use Combustion to add an additional DoT effect that does the combined damage of ALL the other DoTs on the mob. Or opening with Frostbolt and hope it afflicts the mob with a freeze effect, cast Ice Lance if so followed by a down-ranked Frostbolt followed by an Ice Lance to create a shatter combo. The importance in both models being that abilities build on each other. Despite the disdain some show to the combo system for spells, it has taken a step in that direction. The problem is that the system is missing extra things like procs, situational spells that can be weaved in if the conditions are met and so on.

You're absolutely right in that current caster classes lack a "theme" as it applies to combat gameplay. However, I don't think that can be solved in a system like this alone. I also have a huge amount of respect for solo combos. And having also played a WoW mage (other favorite classes being warrior, hunter, and death knight) I know exactly what you mean there.

In the end, solo rotational strategy is about having a critical balance between what can be changed, and what can't. We push our limits to certain tiers (for a long time I was in love with the WotLK Improved Steady Shot gamble via haste using proc-trinks in a precisely manipulable fashion) in order to reach a new tactical difference (being able to fire off exactly 3 ISSs before my next CD ability, or exactly 4 given proc one or 5 given double proc, etc).

Though, that might only be true for setting oneself up in preparation for a fight. [Additionally, it's very doable without ability cooldowns, using a more analog system of gliding strength per ability and sets of abilities instead.] Either way though, it needs to stem off something larger, more intricate. WotLK's talent systems were a good example of this. Whether you like the idea of the areas of choice being identical for every player or not (I personally don't), they had sufficient complexity and enough unpredictable uses to make some truly unique playstyles. FFXIV would first need something similar. That in turn requires a new layer of depth in leveling, where FFXIV again falls short.

Though this system could add far more strategy to casting, its ideal uses are only going to come in combination with larger changes, the majority of which are probably overdue.

That said, I would never try to copy WoW's system. WoW's talents system (paired with its abilities) worked for WoW because it was WoW, not just because it's a universally powerful system. What I'd make for FFXIV would stem from Final Fantasy instead, the more fundamental or thematic the connection the better. Mechanics are made to serve a story and to serve play. Not the other way around.

Not saying that's what you seemed to be hoping for at all. I agree with everything you've said here. The last rant was only what I can call a "head's up".

In summary: Those issues are beyond the domain of this system alone.

[Enfarious]

You failed to read between the lines when I mentioned benefits of not being fully committed to an element or school of magic. Having too many spells around makes the system feel disjointed. Even with options people still gravitate towards what gets them more bang for their buck, which is why every Black Mage in FFXI merited Thunder Pontency and went 5/5 Burst II. Likewise why every Red Mage that was not me went full 5/5 Ice Accuracy (whereas I went 3/5 Fire and 2/5 Ice, as I like Fire).

That will happen in this too, but it's very avoidable, all they have to do is make the base dmg for each spell equal, keep the added effects, that's an interesting idea and helps keep them all useful. The reason XI ended up all Ice was because of the base dmg scaling, and then abyssea buffs, that was flawed mechanics, and a lesson that should be learned from.

Not really. It encourages a DPS rotation. In the case of PLD it creates part of the priority system for tanking. Still far from what I would call complete, though.
Yes, this is what I was referring to.

I assume you mean 1>2>3; 4 > 5 > 6; 1>2>3; 7 > 8> 9; 1>2>3 when you say rotation. Mind numbing when it's down on paper. Not very engaging as a game mechanic either, unless your a fan of very simple, but if you played XI to the point of having full merits on any job pre abyssea then simple wasn't your cup of tea.

It encourages each person to play their "individual" role, they don't work "together" a tank spams hate control, DDs spam WSs, we don't coordinate attacks for any form of "added effectiveness".
Battle Regimens were what was supposed to cover that, but they didn't work out well. I just hope they come back in a functional form, or that some other type of interconnection of WSs Spells and Abils to encourage actually playing in a coordinated way.
Yeah standing in the right place blah blah blah, so you don't get hit but again that's just individuals doing their thing, not interacting with one another for any actual effect.
The saddest thing I watched happen in XI was the failing of Skillchains and Magic Bursts, outside of static groups that were used to working together. Then the introduction of every job being able to solo skillchain, but it's been said Abyssea was the testing ground for the party/combat system for this.

[Shurrikhan]

I assume you mean 1>2>3; 4 > 5 > 6; 1>2>3; 7 > 8> 9; 1>2>3 when you say rotation. Mind numbing when it's down on paper.

The current combo system for certain is not engaging. He only said it was a step in the right direction. I personally see no difference between the first and second; both can be macro'ed to one or two damage-dealing buttons. There is no doubt however that solo-rotations can be engaging and intricate. It just takes a lot of factors, a lot of programming, in more than just the combat system itself. When I figure out a way to make that happen, I'll post it. I guess I've just been under a bit of a block lately.

[Duelle]

You're absolutely right in that current caster classes lack a "theme" as it applies to combat gameplay. However, I don't think that can be solved in a system like this alone. I also have a huge amount of respect for solo combos. And having also played a WoW mage (other favorite classes being warrior, hunter, and death knight) I know exactly what you mean there.

I was a Prot Warrior, Ret Paladin, and transmogrification facilitated my playing a Mage. Funny how being able to swap out those weird robes for something a little more modest can encourage one to play a class they would normally not play.

Though, that might only be true for setting oneself up in preparation for a fight. [Additionally, it's very doable without ability cooldowns, using a more analog system of gliding strength per ability and sets of abilities instead.] Either way though, it needs to stem off something larger, more intricate. WotLK's talent systems were a good example of this. Whether you like the idea of the areas of choice being identical for every player or not (I personally don't), they had sufficient complexity and enough unpredictable uses to make some truly unique playstyles. FFXIV would first need something similar. That in turn requires a new layer of depth in leveling, where FFXIV again falls short.

I disagree here. You don't need a talent system to get something similar. What you'd need is further emphasis on job traits, especially when playing as a job rather than a class.

That said, I would never try to copy WoW's system. WoW's talents system (paired with its abilities) worked for WoW because it was WoW, not just because it's a universally powerful system.

I wouldn't copy it, but take a look at how it achieved balance in the form of involved gameplay on a level that did not have you losing to the latency boss (which screwed over skillchains in FFXI for anything more complicated than "Open WS and Close WS" with nothing in between), balanced raid comps that could have class stacking but very rarely encouraged it, and paced progression that didn't involve our current 0.000000001% drop rates. Draw inspiration, borrow what works, tweak it to fit your setting and move on.

What I'd make for FFXIV would stem from Final Fantasy instead, the more fundamental or thematic the connection the better. Mechanics are made to serve a story and to serve play. Not the other way around.

I understand this, but it also brings up something I've been mentioning for the last two years: certains parts of Final Fantasy do not work in the context of an MMORPG. Tanaka tried to stick to "Final Fantasy" when designing XI's mechanics, and what we got was a botched resource system, some jobs being more useful than others, the "I spent 50% of my time AFK resting my health and the other 50% AFK auto attacking" joke, and Refresh-botting. Lore and job-wise I have every bit of confidence in the Final Fantasy IP. Mechanics-wise...not so much; not after seeing two of the more popular jobs in the series treated the way they were in XI (Red Mages and Summoners).

[Shurrikhan]

Haha, yeah I probably should have mentioned that I wouldn't copy FFXI either. I wouldn't make any combo that requires another player's action as a dependent factor with an exact difference on your next cast. I'd just make a difference based on the proximity of their landing. You can still achieve things similar to skill-chaining by using a party-loading (mantle) system, but it requires sub-targeting. I.e. I load "ability A" onto you, aimed at X. Your next "ability D" has additional effect Z. His "ability D" could likewise cause something in return for me, but I don't have to wait for it to have my ability gain that additional effect. It's set immediately, to be used at will (within reasonable time limits) by the other. You could say it's still partly time-sequence dependent, but you're not waiting for that variable to come back. You're free to do whatever you like in the meantime. "Combos" won't be cancelled by doing *anything but "ability D"*, etc. You just could potentially do something contradictory to your earlier intentions, but that's possible with or without "combos" anyways.

(I probably should be more careful to use this term loosely, as "combos" usually do mean that each step is directly related to and only possible to an exact ability, rather than the execution of a purpose using whatever ability as a means to do that most precisely.)

To the latter half, I think something distinctly FF could be made without those problems. I honestly think it was done wrongly. I know that sounds arrogant before knowing how exactly I'd do it. I guess it's just a gut feeling where it seems logically ridiculous to believe that there's no better way.

And goddamn I'd love to see Red Mages especially done right...

And yeah, it is hard to beat WoW in terms of balanced intricacy, though I'd love to do exactly that. And it really is a shame the last two expansions (Cata and upcoming) seem so hell-bent on simplification. But, that's irrelevant. Sorry for digressing.

[Enfarious]

What you, unless I'm mistaken, describe is the battle regimen system, someone would:
Open/Start a regimen
Add a skill/spell
then others, who wanted to, would add their skills/spells
Person who initiated would then execute

Order mattered for the sake of achieving different effects, and different skills/spells in different orders achieved different effects. There was a time limit imposed on adding commands to the regimen queue so you couldn't just leave it open from the start of a fight and use it when ever. It had the potential to be a great system. Sadly the execution of regimens didn't work right, there was no AA, and once you started/added to the regimen you were unable to act until it was executed. It failed ...

In the longer fights where damage mounts mages couldn't add spells because it stopped them from healing, it slowed DPS with melee just standing still, tanks couldn't get involved because they needed to spam skills to hold hate.

Assuming they "fix" those things and return it in 2.0, which has been mentioned in a few places, by the dev notes. It still has the potential, as long as it doesn't lock us out of being able to act in other ways, and now with AA it wouldn't completely ruin DPS anymore.

[Shurrikhan]

What you, unless I'm mistaken, describe is the battle regimen system

Sadly the execution of regimens didn't work right, there was no AA, and once you started/added to the regimen you were unable to act until it was executed.

Then this is not a battle regimen system, as I never meant for it to be. I just said I wouldn't make dependency locks. At no point will you be forced to wait.

Edit: if I were to implement anything that I'd call a Battle Regimens system, it'd be different in niche. It'd kind of be like cross-talents with a certain other member of your team, that's quickly and easily set up, but with potentially great depth for their use. Something like "Shatter lines" that causes Ice to shatter for particle damage with relatively little melted when a single count of heat is added by Lightning.

More on edit when I get back.

[Duelle]

Haha, yeah I probably should have mentioned that I wouldn't copy FFXI either.

I wouldn't be so worried about them copying XI if the battle designer from XI had stayed there instead of him being moved to work on XIV.

I wouldn't make any combo that requires another player's action as a dependent factor with an exact difference on your next cast. I'd just make a difference based on the proximity of their landing. You can still achieve things similar to skill-chaining by using a party-loading (mantle) system, but it requires sub-targeting.

You could also take the approach Dragon Age took to combined spells, but you'd need to design spells in a way that they had a lingering effect.

To the latter half, I think something distinctly FF could be made without those problems. I honestly think it was done wrongly. I know that sounds arrogant before knowing how exactly I'd do it. I guess it's just a gut feeling where it seems logically ridiculous to believe that there's no better way.

You're a better man than I for having more patience. I have something of a threshold for experimentation and innovation, and once that thershold is surpassed I start saying "stop horsing around and just use something that works". Granted, I'm being lenient with this game so far because up until Yoshida took over I haven't seen SE so much as try different things to see what sticks and what doesn't.

And goddamn I'd love to see Red Mages especially done right...

Indeed. Hopefully locking RDM to a rapier if they implement Fencer will solve half of the job's problems.

*Ahem*
Trying to get back into the topic, if you want to add complexity to magic then yes, spells should build on each other in some way. My original suggestion a while back was build up mechanics per element (back then, I was under the assumption BLM would get all elements like they normally do). Something like opening with Burn on a mob to give them a DoT effect, then having all fire spells gain bonus damage from Burn being on the target mob. On ocassion you get a proc that makes, say, Flare instant-cast and reduces the MP cost of Flare by 25% (assuming Flare would be a very expensive spell that will quickly drain you of MP if used outside of procs). Add a mechanic where you get MP back (either by a proc that can be consummed instead of using it on the instant-cast Flare). Add Meltdown as a modified spell that decreases physical and magic defense by 5%.

Thus, BLM's gameplay if they like Fire would be using Fire spells comboing into each other (Fire => Fira => Firaga => Firaja), keeping Burn up on the target to up personal DPS, keep Meltdown up on the target to increase raid DPS, if they get their proc they can throw in Flare, if short on MP they can consume their proc to get MP back instead of using it on Flare.

Problem is, this is just one element out of six. Playing to the elemental wheel is very risky because then you make things very complicated with little reward in return.

I guess we could try to change things to make the elements interact with each other, though. Open with Frost (increases ice resistance but decreasing fire resistance) for the DoT effect but the effect has charges. Like say, Frost when afflicting a mob has 4 charges, thus boosts incoming fire damage 4 times before the effect has to be applied again. Can still have stuff like Meltdown as a debuff to be applied by the BLM.

Of course, if left as an open debuff, that means a BLM can use Frost, then 4 BLMs can volley Firaja on the mob to consume the debuff and do a ton of damage at the same time. By the same token, if Regise the BLM is setting up his fire combo to consume all 4 Frost charges, but Duelle the Red Mage comes in and uses the Fencer-derived Flame Thrust in the middle of Regise's casting, Duelle ends up denying Regise part of his potential damage. I'd still like to see the ancient magic-type spells as spells that should realistically be used within procs but can be used outside of procs for a higher resource cost.

[Shurrikhan]

I think I got something!

Btw, just to clarify, things like Burn already covered a lot of that function. Somehow I assumed that people would get that off the technical details (i.e. plasma medium, Burn flame potency, etc), because I'm dense.

Take this for an example: the more fire damage you use at one time (treating dps as an actual live number; the derivative is as important as the damage itself), the more heat is produced in that moment, dissipating thereafter (with the dissipation reduced by adding more heat [both by slightly resetting timers and by the obvious fact that heat is added]. I could rack up heat so that each application of heat is improving the next in a steady barrage before heat is lost. I could have the full party blast one, then sustain the lingering damage of the cast with Bio--Aeroga with all that damage over time being dealt at high burn and without escaping the Bio.

Lengthier example:
When attacking 5 enemies with 5 casters [4 Conj, 1 Thaum] I could soak the middle one first, blast him with lightning for high heat enough to evaporate the water into steam, set him on fire while the heat's still up, Aeroga at different overlapping fields across mobs at high heat to distribute burning to the others, Dia the one in the middle, turning the overlapping fields into a larger, sustained whirlwind, use the basic fire spell into the AoE system periodically to conserve stamina, then Thundara the outside 4 with one cast on each, to bring them up to a heat enough to hit the plasma medium, swapping all heat to the middle through Thunder paired with the Dia, swapping to Bio during the cast, literally blowing up the first target for disintegrated armor damage and leaving blood.

From there, something like...
Cast Reflect on the system (designated by Bio), then blast Thunder from near the remaining 4 enemies to rebound the lightning damage + heat onto the other 4 enemies (who's heat will have only been at plasma medium for a split second or two). Finish them off, mostly doable by the damage over time over the next two seconds...

Or, taking advantage of the blood:
Target the other 4 from within the Bio, cast Water at them, extracting the full heat under water medium (heat will cause it to change mediums on next interaction [Bio delayed that]), getting heat through that way for increased fire damage and the damage over time until heat dissipates.

A lot of random shit thrown in there, including a returned stamina measurement (more like FFXIII alpha ATB than anything FFXIV's used), Reflect, and that Dia acts as a drawing center for nearby spells in addition to dealing damage over time based on Light and Bio holds a system in place while dealing damage over time based on lack of Light. But, that's just an example of gameplay.

Things like Meltdown would come from melting enemy armor, more literally. Plasma and very hot water, especially with solid mass in it (prior earth spells melted), would do well for that.

As for MP returns... I think that would come from something like elements within the caster's mind as well. Kind of like... Mindsets fulfilled by TP, that could be extracted for some purpose. I'll keep going when I get back, hopefully with this more clear to me. Sorry I only have a few minutes to write this. I'm sure it shows in the quality. : (

(Other members put off departure for a bit.)
**Yes, this is by now departing from the original idea, separate. I'm trying to create the place it fits in a larger picture that's still vague to me, and this came up when writing what I saw. This won't come up in any serious posts until I've at least mostly completed that "full picture".

My only point here was that at least a WoW-equivalent level of intricacy can be achieved from use of the smaller factors. Paired with angles, and enemy AI responses to derivative damage-dealing (the intensity over time), elements, and patterns of attack, it can be more than WoW-level.

If I also add in mechanics that have each member of the team trying to fulfill their own production of power as well, rather than being identical in both group (large-scale) and individual (small-scale) purpose, it can go way beyond that even. However, I wouldn't gun for that except coincidentally. I'm looking for aspects of the game to fit every part of it, such that each piece fits the whole as to be greater than the sum, etc, etc.

[Deltara]

I would be happy with a simple system.

Say, any Tier 1 spell can combo into any Tier 2 spell, providing different debuffs/effects depending on the combos.

So maybe fire >> fira would be for maximum fire damage and no debuff on the mob.

But fire >> blizzara would be low damage with a powerful paralyze debuff on the target.

Or fire >> thundara would be moderate damage with a short stun effect on the target.

Something simple enough for everyone to understand, but complex enough that you don't get bored with thunder combo's all the time.