Elementality – Fundamentals to Involve Chain/Sequential Elemental Casting; Complexity

[Shurrikhan]

I know it's a shame. You put alot of time and effort into writing a well thought out post. Then people just ignore it, say everything is fine with current system, and just call you a whiner.

I guess it's a difference of habit, probably having to do with more than just video games. I see something like this, and my next thoughts will be on some sort of Junction system, and just how cool this game could be if its gameplay could fulfill the highest extent of all its premises and its FF legacy (well beyond merely FFXI). Another sees it and their first thoughts are "how much more work will this make me do to be raid-capable?"

[Shurrikhan]

To Jinyra & Enfarious

Actually, on that note, I was wondering if you guys wanted to work on something together, maybe more as just considerations for different directions in which to take the game as opposed to exact suggestions. I guess it'd be purposed more towards fun or stimulation than production, at least at first.

[Duelle]

[*] Full elemental wheel returned to Conjurors. Umbral/Astral magic returned to Thaumaturges.

This already weakens your proposal, as it goes entirely against the design for magic currently in place in relation to classes and their respective jobs. I haven't leveled THM to really learn how they're explaining the transition from THM to BLM, but full elemental wheel being given back to CON means that the job quests and WHM/BLM would have to change so that both stem from CON and have other mage jobs stem from THM (whether this is how it should have been since the beginning or not is moot).

Your overall system fits better in a single player RPG rather than an MMO. There's a reason why mechanics in general are so limited between the fact that you alone are not controlling all aspects of the battle, latency, delay and slow individual reaction times and so on. I will grant you that there's a benefit to not being entirely commited to one school of magic (the reason why WoW and games that followed use elemental alignments as flavor for casters), but I'm still not sold on this idea.

[Shurrikhan]

This already weakens your proposal, as it goes entirely against the design for magic currently in place in relation to classes and their respective jobs. I haven't leveled THM to really learn how they're explaining the transition from THM to BLM, but full elemental wheel being given back to CON means that the job quests and WHM/BLM would have to change so that both stem from CON and have other mage jobs stem from THM (whether this is how it should have been since the beginning or not is moot).

I think whether 'that was how it should have been in the beginning' is the most relevant question one can ask, or at least to, in considering the quality of the idea, put aside for the moment what has been set, especially if what has been set is not fully satisfying. If one bases their ideas first and foremost off half-measures, and then each following idea off the half-measures before it, the ideal that really shouldn't have been so difficult before seems now to be fantasy. It's a point of contingency, rather than being intrinsic.

I'm aware prior changes to the classes would have to be changed yet again to match this system. I also don't consider that a problem as long as this idea is taken further, completed for all aspects of the game. In all honesty, I wouldn't take this idea alone. But I'd sure as hell take a complete set, something ideal, over numerous small changes again and again or left even without those minor repairs in the name of "good enough". I've started this line of thought in this subject because I felt it would be a good first step, and that it wouldn't be mutually exclusive with either future ideas and the current system.

Your overall system fits better in a single player RPG rather than an MMO. There's a reason why mechanics in general are so limited between the fact that you alone are not controlling all aspects of the battle, latency, delay and slow individual reaction times and so on. I will grant you that there's a benefit to not being entirely commited to one school of magic (the reason why WoW and games that followed use elemental alignments as flavor for casters), but I'm still not sold on this idea.

Isn't the condition that aspects of battle are no longer in your hands alone exactly what makes teamwork enjoyable in an MMO? For what other reasons would we play them? We count on other factors, other people. And none of those factors limit this system, seeing as the timing it would bring to use is still within the error of latency. Programming, such as through a mantle system (point-check-count-release), is also possible in order to remove latency issues in simultaneous casting. But, as simultaneous casting was never that far separate from sequential in this system to begin with, I don't see how that would be an issue.

[Enfarious]

I think, aside from hearing another, "I like the easy buttons." There's just more opposition to change, yeah the old way was more robust, had more options, and greater potential for all the jobs/classes, but now there's less work/thought to put in to what I do. I don't want that changed, I've grown comfortable with things as they are now and I don't want to learn a new system.

Those are more of what is being contended with than getting all the old spells/abils back where they were, the dats are all still holding them exactly how they were. The mobs we fight still have access to all of them, it wouldn't be hard, but we have a player base where the majority seem to enjoy this super easy thunder thunder thunder, cyclone cyclone cyclone method of play.

Sorry Duelle but to say that this system, or any system where player positions can have beneficial effects, is better fit to a single player game is ridiculous. Tanks are always expected to keep a mob "positioned" melees are expected to be in certain positions, mages are also expected to be in their proper positions. Now asking that having those people in their places add a new dynamic is all MMO all the way. It promotes teamwork, there's that "work" thing again I know. It adds flavor to party dynamics by allowing for different playstyles and different party makeups to still yeild effective strategies.

Our current system was taken directly from 3rd person single player games, Infamous, Dante's Inferno, Dark Siders, Demon Souls. Solo Combos are about as anti team as you can get w/o saying do away with parties all together. Watching your enmity marker, another easy mode button, and spamming the same thing completely ignoring what others are doing isn't team play, it's soloing in a group of other solo players. That's single player gaming.

[Shurrikhan]

I think he was referring more to the casting sequence strategy, where more control = more effectiveness, which would be *easier* by a lot in a single player game -- not the positions, where it would honestly be harder to control AI for than players.

...In the end I think I just need to rethink the way I post stuff. Implementation isn't going to be an issue for the average reader. I'll focus on the "fun" of the ideas first next time. Still trying to figure out the best next step to make though, and how to explain it effectively...

[Enfarious]

yeah, having to communicate what your doing and when is like practicing team work, we wouldn't want to encourage that too much more than we do now. . .
It's what macros were made for though, ensuring effective sharing of pertinent information like when your casting what. So others can adjust and work together effectively.

[Shurrikhan]

yeah, having to communicate what your doing and when is like practicing team work, we wouldn't want to encourage that too much more than we do now. . .
It's what macros were made for though, ensuring effective sharing of pertinent information like when your casting what. So others can adjust and work together effectively.

I think easier would be to just use a cast-bars tracking your allies' spell casts, paired with a mantle system. They're not hard to program after all. There's no way I'm going to be hitting macros in a fight if the fight can live up to my expectations of intensity (though those are high standards, lol).

My point is though, as long as you're willing to change something, often further changes will come naturally, and hint each time at a final, complete product. People just need to be less afraid of the programming work. : P
^ probably the best advice I've gotten from computer science friends.

[Enfarious]

I think easier would be to just use a cast-bars tracking your allies' spell casts, paired with a mantle system. They're not hard to program after all. There's no way I'm going to be hitting macros in a fight if the fight can live up to my expectations of intensity (though those are high standards, lol).

My point is though, as long as you're willing to change something, often further changes will come naturally, and hint each time at a final, complete product. People just need to be less afraid of the programming work. : P
^ probably the best advice I've gotten from computer science friends.

I won't get into writing code, or what can/should go into that.
If hitting a macro is too much then something is wrong, it's a matter of pressing alt/ctrl along w/ 0...9 instead of just 0...9 if a system is implemented that makes that not work that's moving toward a button mash fest.
Macros, if written well can convey messages about the actions your going to take while allowing you to reduce the overall number of keystrokes needed to complete the actions, not to mention adding timing precision.
So again creating a system that makes macros not good/useful would be making a system that is more just strafe and hold "x" that's an FPS.

I really did like where the OP seemed to be headed, but this direction doesn't seem to keep in an RPG environment but more along the lines of platform/FPS

[Duelle]

The mobs we fight still have access to all of them, it wouldn't be hard, but we have a player base where the majority seem to enjoy this super easy thunder thunder thunder, cyclone cyclone cyclone method of play.

You failed to read between the lines when I mentioned benefits of not being fully committed to an element or school of magic. Having too many spells around makes the system feel disjointed. Even with options people still gravitate towards what gets them more bang for their buck, which is why every Black Mage in FFXI merited Thunder Pontency and went 5/5 Burst II. Likewise why every Red Mage that was not me went full 5/5 Ice Accuracy (whereas I went 3/5 Fire and 2/5 Ice, as I like Fire).

Solo Combos are about as anti team as you can get w/o saying do away with parties all together.

Not really. It encourages a DPS rotation. In the case of PLD it creates part of the priority system for tanking. Still far from what I would call complete, though.

I think he was referring more to the casting sequence strategy, where more control = more effectiveness, which would be *easier* by a lot in a single player game -- not the positions, where it would honestly be harder to control AI for than players.

Yes, this is what I was referring to.

As an aside, I think you went to lengths to explain things as if they were to actually happen. This is fine up to a point, but again, I don't think it has a place in an MMORPG. If it were part of the magic system for The Last Story 2, then I could see it being interesting and having some depth.

At the same time, the base of your idea can work, but much like the initial part of your proposal would involve some pretty drastic changes. The interaction and additional effects of elemental spells should be noted and useful.

At the same time, the hard part is that you don't have a real "theme" behind casters to build on. At least, not in the way you could open with Scorch if moving or Fireball if standing still, using Pyroblast when Hot Streak procs and if you end up with multiple DoT effects on the mob can use Combustion to add an additional DoT effect that does the combined damage of ALL the other DoTs on the mob. Or opening with Frostbolt and hope it afflicts the mob with a freeze effect, cast Ice Lance if so followed by a down-ranked Frostbolt followed by an Ice Lance to create a shatter combo. The importance in both models being that abilities build on each other. Despite the disdain some show to the combo system for spells, it has taken a step in that direction. The problem is that the system is missing extra things like procs, situational spells that can be weaved in if the conditions are met and so on.