More unneccesary nerfs to older content

[Kolsykol]

A pretty large section of the playerbase only play it as a singleplayer MSQ game and for casual side activities.
I wish it was different but meh...
I just want more challenging endgame content and also harder versions of dungeons, but if they actually rewarded you accordingly people would get mad for '' being left out ''...
Which is just dumb imho, most people who get mad because they can't get BiS or whatever aren't even doing content where that matters at all.

Imo tho I do think that this hurts the first impression of the game a lot, I hear it over and over again how people start playing the game and call the game braindead easy even with the trials.
It doesn't help that the '' hard mode '' versions aren't even hard.
'' Hard mode Titan '' is like easy mode lol, while the normal mode is story mode.

But yeah it's one of my biggest issues with the game, a lot of the content simply isn't engaging at all because of how easy it is and how you can quite literally stand in and ignore mechanics altogether and barely take damage.
Imo I think they should at some point just go all in on the Trust System and make it the solo experience and then significantly up the difficulty in the party content.
I really don't think that it's healthy for a game long term to cater so hard to people who don't even want to try, after they're done with the MSQ it doesn't really matter anymore.

I mean at some point you have to gatekeep, when you make the game to be easy enough for the most low skill level player who are just completely hopeless at the game then you're severely compromising it for most other people.
I don't think that the game should be compromised for the majority because a minority click one button every five sec and can't move out of an AoE circle with a 10 sec cast time.

Which in practice changes nothing. No offense.

How and why would you learn if the game doesn't incentivize you to learn?
If anything nerfed content just makes the average player worse.

[MiaShino]

How and why would you learn if the game doesn't incentivize you to learn?
If anything nerfed content just makes the average player worse.

It can also make others not wish to play at all. Right now being able to play together is what has kept many friends going past post ARR.

Am watching them mess around as I type this stuffs in older dungeons by seeing how much they can skip. Did you know with Holmgang you can skip the entire first pull of Stone Vigil and just sack into first boss? Pretty fricken neat! Recently discovered you can skip 80% of Vale too. Nearly entire frog death canyon can be skipped in Darkhold by grabbing first two mobs then falling. Kinda sadness inducing watching someone going so mad they give up on proper leveling and just start doing random sack runs to get the heck out of the dungeon faster. Oh well!

[Saraide]

A pretty large section of the playerbase only play it as a singleplayer MSQ game and for casual side activities.
I wish it was different but meh...
I just want more challenging endgame content and also harder versions of dungeons, but if they actually rewarded you accordingly people would get mad for '' being left out ''...
Which is just dumb imho, most people who get mad because they can't get BiS or whatever aren't even doing content where that matters at all.

Imo tho I do think that this hurts the first impression of the game a lot, I hear it over and over again how people start playing the game and call the game braindead easy even with the trials.
It doesn't help that the '' hard mode '' versions aren't even hard.
'' Hard mode Titan '' is like easy mode lol, while the normal mode is story mode.

But yeah it's one of my biggest issues with the game, a lot of the content simply isn't engaging at all because of how easy it is and how you can quite literally stand in and ignore mechanics altogether and barely take damage.
Imo I think they should at some point just go all in on the Trust System and make it the solo experience and then significantly up the difficulty in the party content.
I really don't think that it's healthy for a game long term to cater so hard to people who don't even want to try, after they're done with the MSQ it doesn't really matter anymore.

I mean at some point you have to gatekeep, when you make the game to be easy enough for the most low skill level player who are just completely hopeless at the game then you're severely compromising it for most other people.
I don't think that the game should be compromised for the majority because a minority click one button every five sec and can't move out of an AoE circle with a 10 sec cast time.



How and why would you learn if the game doesn't incentivize you to learn?
If anything nerfed content just makes the average player worse.

Landslide famously an aoe with 10s telegraph. Do people even read what they are posting?

[Kolsykol]

Landslide famously an aoe with 10s telegraph. Do people even read what they are posting?

I wasn't referring to Landslide specifically, pot meet kettle?

Those opportunities to learn are still very much abundant in the game. Be it with interacting with Morbol fruits in Aurum Vale or teaching you to use the crystal areas in order to avoid Eyes on Me, or driving the All-seeing eye into the platform to make him vulnerable. These learning opportunities only grow more abundant later on in story content.

In the case of the trials, any mechanic which results in your permanent incapacitation in the fight only detracts away from your ability to learn and practice/execute said mechanic. If they aren't alive, and if they can't be resurrected then they have no chance aside from sitting on by. Maybe they'll see a glimmer of how the mechanics work, maybe they won't. But regardless of the circumstance unless they wipe, they won't be gaining that opportunity to learn. You can have a player fall off in Titan (hard) and spend the entire time sitting around like a corpse and still clear the encounter without them having actually practiced anything meaningful. So in these events, once again. They actually detract away from a learning opportunity. Whether their death is permanent or not. The fact remains that failing the mechanic will kill them, and not giving them the chance to practice it again outside of wiping is bad game design. Not to mention it unnecessarily ultimately punishes the entire group by forcing them to pick up the slack or to spend needless time incessantly hitting an enrage.

I think there's very few dungeons that actually makes you learn, I don't think that the Morbol Fruits and the purple floor stuff really translates to much if anything useful later on either.
But I do however think that mechanics not being punishing enough essentially teaches people not to try, in regards to the permanent incapacitation stuff I think it adds some flavor and makes the fight more unique. But I am moreso thinking about the content in a generalized sense.
I do think that enrage should be more of a thing too if people just endlessly fail at everything, I just don't think that you should essentially get the same end result if you go in watching netflix and paying zero attention to the game only with a bit of extra time to complete required.

I do understand what you're saying and I do agree with it to some extent, but the problem is that the practice ends up not being practice but instead a clear regardless.
I don't believe that you should be able to fail hilariously ten times in a fight and still clear, sure remove the perma death I guess but then have an actual enrage so that you can't get thrown off the platform ten times and still clear.
If there is to be an incentive to learn then there needs to be some kind of punishment, if people are taught that they can die over and over again and still succeed then they're not really going to learn I don't think.

I just think this is how people in general work, if they're not going to fail then it's not actually practice it just turns into a '' whatever I'll clear anyway, *queue duty complete sound effect* ''.
If the practice is to actually matter and become actual practice then there needs to be an actual fail state tied to it.
That fail state is not killing the boss, in FFXIV dying isn't rly much of a fail state because of the essentially infinite ress.

[Saraide]

I wasn't referring to Landslide specifically, pot meet kettle?

Ah so you're ok with titan getting that change then? Atleast some sense is found here, which makes me very glad

[Kaurhz]

Snip.

If I'm to be frank neither of these highlighted dungeons actually forced me to take anything away from them as a learning experience. At least not in any way that I haven't learned something a lot more relevant later on. Most people in normal story mode content aren't really going to be drawing a wealth of experience and knowledge from completely one-off encounters until they've done them several times. Regarding the morbol fruits, I would beg to differ. It teaches you to look at your debuff bar and act accordingly. Many encounters in the game will put you in a position where you need to look at your debuff bar. Whether or not you spend future encounters picking up fruits or not, you'll still be forced to act according to your debuffs. Be it with marching debuffs, or doom.

If a mechanic kills you for failing it, then it is a punishing mechanic. There's no need to punish someone needlessly by taking them out of the pull indefinitely. If people are dying to mechanics like flies then the chances are you aren't hitting that enrage check. If you die, that check just becomes more stringent, it's as simple as that. Story mode is intended in that you can clear without it being a hindrance to the group if someone is ill-prepared, be it woefully or otherwise, but aside from these mechanics that existed in more difficult areas of the content, e.g. Extreme, then I'm sorry but if someone is spending the majority of the fight dying repeatedly then in most peoples' case you'll be hitting an enrage check.

Again, if a mechanic kills you outright, whether it be via fall damage and perma-incapacitation or something more widespread such as doom then you're still being punished significantly enough as to think "Well, I've done something wrong" - Killing them outright creates that opportunity. I'm sorry but stiffing someone to a bench is not compelling, nor is it engaging. If I have no willingness to learn, then I'm sorry whether I'm on the bench for 20 seconds, or whether I'm on a bench for 5 minutes, doesn't really matter. If anything for a larger portion of players will just find that form of execution more demoralizing than anything. If I want to learn then death alone is going to encourage that.

Whilst I would agree, players shouldn't always be allowed to necessarily die several dozen times in a pull and still clear, I think there are more creative ways of enabling this process than sticking to something as abysmal as perma-incapacitation. Edit: At this point, it's just a matter of principality, though. Some people will find it compelling and fun, some others simply won't. Some people would enjoy the thrill come-back potential of death, some people don't. Personally, I think it just acts as a needless catalyst for making people rage.

[Kaurhz]

How and why would you learn if the game doesn't incentivize you to learn?
If anything nerfed content just makes the average player worse.

Those opportunities to learn are still very much abundant in the game. Be it with interacting with Morbol fruits in Aurum Vale or teaching you to use the crystal areas in order to avoid Eyes on Me, or driving the All-seeing eye into the platform to make him vulnerable. These learning opportunities only grow more abundant later on in story content.

In the case of the trials, any mechanic which results in your permanent incapacitation in the fight only detracts away from your ability to learn and practice/execute said mechanic. If they aren't alive, and if they can't be resurrected then they have no chance aside from sitting on by. Maybe they'll see a glimmer of how the mechanics work, maybe they won't. But regardless of the circumstance unless they wipe, they won't be gaining that opportunity to learn. You can have a player fall off in Titan (hard) and spend the entire time sitting around like a corpse and still clear the encounter without them having actually practiced anything meaningful. So in these events, once again. They actually detract away from a learning opportunity. Whether their death is permanent or not. The fact remains that failing the mechanic will kill them, and not giving them the chance to practice it again outside of wiping is bad game design. Not to mention it unnecessarily ultimately punishes the entire group by forcing them to pick up the slack or to spend needless time incessantly hitting an enrage.

[Colt47]

Actually... I don't think those changes are completely for us. Remember how they are going to add Trusts to those dungeons? Can you imagine how bad it would be if your tank npc just got yeeted off a cliff? If it was a person than yeah they will adjust, but your npc tank is going to do the same stupid thing each time unless you figure out a way to adjust that boss.

Yeah it kind of sucks we lose the immersion from not being able to revive someone who shouldn't even have a body on the field at that point, though. The could have even made it where if you lose an npc down a hole, another one just runs in as reinforcements.

[redheadturk]

Honestly, I am thrilled at them removing permadeath from Titan. I cannot tell you how many times ping and snapshotting made me die to landslide >>

[HyoMinPark]

I don’t care if they want to remove perma-death from the normal modes, but it should have remained in Extreme. The point of EX is it’s supposed to be harder and more punishing…