About Button Bloat and job accessibility

[Aikaal]

I realized the main reason why Kaiten is getting removed is because of "button bloat"

You know what kind of button bloat I'd like for the to remove. Make High Fire II / High Blizzard II an upgrade of Fire III / Blizzard III. I never quite understood why we have different spells to swap Astral and Umbral phases for single target and AoE.

Black Mages have shiny new spells they never use in raid. Not to mention the slight change to Ninja. Making Mug the new Trick Attack is an obvious way to lower skill ceiling because they don't want Genins to lose their party buff because they bunnied. Genins will still be underperforming because they'll bunny a Ninjutsu anyways.

Personally, it started with Healers to lower their skill ceiling to DPS. Monk/Summoner followed (Monk was done much better than Summoner). Summoner became a complete joke in the raiding scene. Painted as a physical DPS that deserves to do no damage for being a no brain job.

If you guys really want Kaiten back for the uniqueness and gameplay, do look back a bit and support the jobs that got butchered. Summoner is super popular now, clearly a "success" but people still play it bad. Summoner is clunky, Carbuncle is 1 button from being glamour and... let's be real, some Summoners will never use Radiant Aegis in their life so it is already glamour for them.

How about Dragoons that lost their aura in the name of simplicity? Or Monk losing their aura from GL. These may as well be called just flavor and glamour but it does remove identity to the job imho.

[Kolsykol]

The thing that frustrates me the most is that the people changes like these are meant for aren't even the same people who will do the harder endgame content...
What does it matter if they can't play optimally in freaking dungeons and story mode trials <_<?
Why should people in Savage, Extreme and Ultimate have their Jobs become less fun to play because of them?

[Aikaal]

The thing that frustrates me the most is that the people changes like these are meant for aren't even the same people who will do the harder endgame content...
What does it matter if they can't play optimally in freaking dungeons and story mode trials <_<?
Why should people in Savage, Extreme and Ultimate have their Jobs become less fun to play because of them?

Remember, a bad Genin that can't properly Suiton to get TA won't properly Raiton ;P

A Samurai that had no idea how to manage his Kenki for Kaiten won't know how to hold it up for burst windows.

I just feel 6.1 is a log of QoL for the players and they are preparing to welcome less experienced players. Aka, single player RPG players that just don't play with online players and they are catering to bad players. At this point, its not even to casuals. I'm sure a ton of casuals don't want to lose Kaiten. That removal is literally just to accommodate bad Samurais. If anything, less players will play the job. Embrace Monks I guess.

[Venur]

The thing that frustrates me the most is that the people changes like these are meant for aren't even the same people who will do the harder endgame content...
What does it matter if they can't play optimally in freaking dungeons and story mode trials <_<?
Why should people in Savage, Extreme and Ultimate have their Jobs become less fun to play because of them?

Cause they represent the biggest chuck of the subs. Now I don't mean these change were good or not. But crafting class around the 3-4% of player that do the high end content makes no sense either.

[SlickPaws]

Cause they represent the biggest chuck of the subs. Now I don't mean these change were good or not. But crafting class around the 3-4% of player that do the high end content makes no sense either.

Crafting the class around feedback and suggestions from the people who actually play the class consistently, at the high level, in the hardest content the game currently has to offer makes a damn sight more sense than whatever it is they're doing now though. While it's true that it's a minority of players who are doing this content, it's those players who have the most knowledge about their classes, the intricacies, the nuances and the major annoyances. So why not straight up ask them what they want or what they think should change if a job absolutely has to change? The devs are always talking a big game about community involvement and taking onboard feedback but it seems to me that this particular change is unwarranted, wasn't asked for and is ignorant of the people who kept the game alive all this time. If the new push is to say "screw the hardcores, screw the veterans, let's just horde that casual sub money" then they're going to lose everyone sooner rather than later.

[Quyn]

I am having the suspicion that the Kaiten removal might be more motivated by high ability input, rather than button bloat. Kaiten comes up quite often in the rotation, more so than shoha, ogi or even tsubame.
True, unifying those actions and their follow up actions, into morphing keys, would help actual button bloat.
However, I expect Kaiten was chosen for removal, to lower the cpm between various different key inputs instead. Kaiten is a good candidate for this result, as it is used so frequently.

[ForteNightshade]

The thing that frustrates me the most is that the people changes like these are meant for aren't even the same people who will do the harder endgame content...
What does it matter if they can't play optimally in freaking dungeons and story mode trials <_<?
Why should people in Savage, Extreme and Ultimate have their Jobs become less fun to play because of them?

While we can only speculate on, my personal theories are:

1. They're aware of ACT's ubiquity in raiding and know even less experienced players will be encouraged to use it, thus seeing lower results
2. Casual players are typically more excited by big numbers, which guaranteed crits (and direct hts) displays consistently
3. Despite not partaking in higher level content, the "meta" scene often trickles down and the devs don't want casual players to feel bad when told they're playing jobs wrong.

I am having the suspicion that the Kaiten removal might be more motivated by high ability input, rather than button bloat. Kaiten comes up quite often in the rotation, more so than shoha, ogi or even tsubame.

The reason I question if this is their intent is because removing Kaiten doesn't reduce Samurai's APM. You're simply pressing Shinten in place of Kaiten now. The only differing factor is Shinten spam is mindless. So long as you put it under raid buffs, you can press it whenever you fancy whereas Kaiten must be used on specific abilities.

[Quyn]

While we can only speculate on, my personal theories are:

1. They're aware of ACT's ubiquity in raiding and know even less experienced players will be encouraged to use it, thus seeing lower results
2. Casual players are typically more excited by big numbers, which guaranteed crits (and direct hts) displays consistently
3. Despite not partaking in higher level content, the "meta" scene often trickles down and the devs don't want casual players to feel bad when told they're playing jobs wrong.

The reason I question if this is their intent is because removing Kaiten doesn't reduce Samurai's APM. You're simply pressing Shinten in place of Kaiten now. The only differing factor is Shinten spam is mindless. So long as you put it under raid buffs, you can press it whenever you fancy whereas Kaiten must be used on specific abilities.

Exactly right. Following this train of thought, should mean that they cut down not on the cpm but the amount of different keys that need to be pressed regularly.
The cpm stays the same but the quantity of different regular button usage, has been reduced.
Unifying ogi, shoha, tsubame, wouldnt result in the same sized impact on that desired outcome. If we differentiate between keys that are pressed regularly and ones pressed once every 40 to 90 seconds, we see how these changes have different results.

That is how I came to the suspicion that this was the actual desired effect. If true, then kaiten makes the most sense for removal or alteration.

Whether it is a goal players agree with in the first place, is of course another topic.

[SlickPaws]

the devs don't want casual players to feel bad when told they're playing jobs wrong.

The devs should probably put more effort into teaching these players how to play the jobs correctly/as intended rather than simply dumbing down jobs to appeal to those who don't want to read their tooltips. I'd much rather they revamped Hall of the Novice to have individual job-specific lessons to teach about job-specific mechanics. By trying to please the casual crowd, they're really pleasing nobody because the casuals aren't going to stick around for as long by virtue of playing casually, so it's just gonna end up with veteran players sitting around with classes they don't really want to play anymore.

[Aikaal]

Yeah, I saw all of that. All that, "The job is easier and more brain dead" when I was really excited about Summoner in Endwalker and I got Endwalker Summoner and now I'm raiding on BLM/RDM.