Please stop simplifying and homogenizing the game. Please.

[Lyth]

Variations in gameplay cannot come at the expense of job balance. Otherwise you end up with homogenized picks instead of homogenized jobs, which is even worse.

The real problem isn't homogenizing jobs. It's partially homogenizing them. If another job does everything else identically +1 extra thing, then you've created a mandatory pick. Either make the differences significant enough that players can't make a simple mathematical comparison, or make them identical.

[Recon1o6]

Variations in gameplay cannot come at the expense of job balance. Otherwise you end up with homogenized picks instead of homogenized jobs, which is even worse.

The real problem isn't homogenizing jobs. It's partially homogenizing them. If another job does everything else identically +1 extra thing, then you've created a mandatory pick. Either make the differences significant enough that players can't make a simple mathematical comparison, or make them identical.

they can come at teh expense of balance, providing the balance is small enough not to matter or it brings something else meaningful to the table that counteracts it. The obsession with balance is part of why the game has suffered so much in the job design department. Everything being stripped for numbers you cant see without a 3rd party program.

Example if whm was better than ast by a plentiful amount of damage you'd take whm, but since Ast can just negate p3s's check, then ast would be the better job for that fight. The battle designers don't take into account job strength when designing fights, thats why team jump rope is how the game plays.

+/-5% damage when played at top tier is not exactly unbalanced despite some members of the community thinking it is.
The lack of focus on job fun and identity is why the shb and ew changes are so unpopular and why this thread even exists. A lot of people don't care about balance, they just want fun and to be able to clear content, not neccessarily clear it faster for a log on a 3rd party website

[Lyth]

...

Players generally don't like sacrificing damage output in the name of utility, regardless of skill level. Being more powerful than other jobs is not a good basis for an 'identity', as we've seen multiple times in the past.

[MiaShino]

lol you can position mobs with a circle AoE. the only problem I see in dungeons is DPS not waiting for the tank to pull everything they want to, then they start ripping aggro away. Changing the outdated and clunky cone to a circle will help fight back against DPS who do this, as I'll be able to make sure I'm hitting everything to build my aggro.

Soooo.. Overpower backwards? Once? Voke? Tomahawk backwards into the yellow circle that is becoming green? Heck no am I thumbing my rumpus on any job when could make mobs half dead on the way there. Should be sprinting between packs anyways and with sprint up (it should be) you will be out of the range for every circle AOE the other tanks have.

Mah. Are people really having the issues with Overpower this fricken frequently? My sprouty friend figured out backwards Overpower when she was in Sastasha. Seriously, am about to pull double fake out on dev team by complaining that White Mage having fewer oGCD heals makes it super duper hard and if only Lilies were ogcd deeps neutral turning Blood Lily into proper movement tech. They seem to only fix things when players struggle with them.

I don't have trouble grabbing trash with Overpower. All I do is AoE once and Orogeny to catch any I miss. If anyone snatches aggro as I run to the second pack then it doesn't really matter that much because all it takes is one button to rip aggro back.

Mmhmm! Which you can do with Overpower's mountain sized cone. Wonder how many minds I can blow by suggesting to some that they do a running backwards Flood of Dankness to generate additional threat on Dark Knight?

[IdowhatIwant]

Variations in gameplay cannot come at the expense of job balance. Otherwise you end up with homogenized picks instead of homogenized jobs, which is even worse.

The real problem isn't homogenizing jobs. It's partially homogenizing them. If another job does everything else identically +1 extra thing, then you've created a mandatory pick. Either make the differences significant enough that players can't make a simple mathematical comparison, or make them identical.

Not really, even when classes were not as homogenized every class was viable. In the end that is all that matters if every class is viable to clear content. Mandatory picks and meta game play is more for competitive games.

Your concept of everything +1 extra thing isn't viable either. There is never really a reason to bring a ninja over a reaper, machinest over a monk, a samurai over a blackmage or a bard over a dancer. The only real reason people use is raw damage numbers. So to narrow it down to a mandatory pick as an excuse for things just aren't homogenized enough is just incorrect.

This game used to have a whole system of synergies, to where if you have x than it is not a bad idea to bring y because they synergize but we did away with that to homogenize things. There was never an actual issue at this time but people would complain and say that x class was not viable for y reason that was usually untrue. The game is in the state it is simply because people won't take time to learn to play so the devs have to make the game play for us. It sucks and I blame this games horrible player base, as well as the devs disconnection between the way they believe the game plays and the way the players actually play it.

[Lyth]

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Viability is a incredibly low bar to set. You can argue that pretty much any job can be 'viable' when paired with jobs that have sufficiently high carry potential. But that doesn't make for satisfying gameplay.

If you read my post, you'd see that I think that partial homogenization is very very bad. A classic example of this was in Heavensward/Stormblood and the 30% DR cooldowns when Sentinel was 40%/180s, Shadow Wall was 30%/180s, and Vengeance was 30%/120s with thorns. It doesn't take a genius to be able to rank these effects from best to worst. If you're going to make it so obvious that the skills are equivalent, then you need to make them identical. Otherwise, make them so different from each other that you can't draw a comparison. This is really not a difficult concept.

The 'job synergies' in this game has had historically were pretty dumb. They didn't reward gameplay so much as they did picking a particular job, which lead to a very stagnant meta. The only people who supported that bad game design were players who lacked the confidence to find groups on account of their own personal skill. If you're genuinely interested in synergy, it should come from coordinating and timing your burst with your teammates, not from your job choice.

[Nekokaori]

Viability is a incredibly low bar to set. You can argue that pretty much any job can be 'viable' when paired with jobs that have sufficiently high carry potential. But that doesn't make for satisfying gameplay.

If you read my post, you'd see that I think that partial homogenization is very very bad. A classic example of this was in Heavensward/Stormblood and the 30% DR cooldowns when Sentinel was 40%/180s, Shadow Wall was 30%/180s, and Vengeance was 30%/120s with thorns. It doesn't take a genius to be able to rank these effects from best to worst. If you're going to make it so obvious that the skills are equivalent, then you need to make them identical. Otherwise, make them so different from each other that you can't draw a comparison. This is really not a difficult concept.

The 'job synergies' in this game has had historically were pretty dumb. They didn't reward gameplay so much as they did picking a particular job, which lead to a very stagnant meta. The only people who supported that bad game design were players who lacked the confidence to find groups on account of their own personal skill. If you're genuinely interested in synergy, it should come from coordinating and timing your burst with your teammates, not from your job choice.

thats false old bard and ast were rewarding if u knew how to use the song and right cards for each sceniro u were in lol

[AnotherPerson]

thats false old bard and ast were rewarding if u knew how to use the song and right cards for each sceniro u were in lol

That's a bit debatable. Old AST had Bole - a damage mitigation card. Sure, it's useful when you're trying to save a run and all in DF, but when fights are scripted heavily and you can't guarantee whether you're going to draw a Bole when you need it for high-end content where mitigation becomes crucial, it becomes superfluous as healers would plan around it.

[Nekokaori]

That's a bit debatable. Old AST had Bole - a damage mitigation card. Sure, it's useful when you're trying to save a run and all in DF, but when fights are scripted heavily and you can't guarantee whether you're going to draw a Bole when you need it for high-end content where mitigation becomes crucial, it becomes superfluous as healers would plan around it.

u could though with redraw chances are u would get it or arrow both were more usefull than people give them credit for, or you could set the card when u got it for a spot u know bole was a usefull one to use

honestly if u knew what u were doing with ast it wasnt even range at all, but knowing when to use your card and how to use it, it was alot like old school yughio playing when u got a card u have to know when and how to use it

and if u played ur cards right u were rewarded which showed the difference of trash ast players and great ones, which was A GOOD THING



also edit:

side note tbh many classes,jobs get destoryed for PEOPLE who are obessed with end game its not even casual ppl destorying jobs its their ....asses

[Rabin]

I agree. Stop the oversimplification.

I've played this game a long time now and have not been happy with the job changes in many instances. I am old, like pensioner old, and had to switch to controller last year because I can't work the mouse for long periods any more. I don't do savage and I accept it's out of my reach, I certainly don't want anything made easier so I can play it.

I clear all normal content. I run the occasional extreme with my FC. I play several jobs at a mediocre level. I liked the old HW DRK when it actually needed some effort. I played SMN for years before it was EW cool and hated the changes to pets when we lost our tank for soloing. I agreed with the old fixes to BRD, so it could be mobile, that made sense, even though I don't main one. I like the L90 additions to the PLD rotation, but still remember how different it was in 2.0, back when it felt more like a holy warrior.

AST was complex. People wanted only one card to come out all the time, was that a reason to destroy the individual card system that you worked so hard to teach us in the job quests back in HW? People who want 'easy' always have other job options. That's why we have so many jobs, I thought. So some of them could be easy, some average and some difficult. They're all heading towards easy and I don't like it.

SAM does not need an easier rotation. A good rotation rewards players willing to make an effort and gives them a level of satisfaction when they achieve it. Take that away and you lose those players. I don't play SAM, but I'll stand up for SAM players who don't want it changed.

I have no idea what has happened to the design team here. I can only assume corporate greed has reared its ugly head and once again SE are going for the easy cash until it breaks the game as they have done with others in the past.

I hope I am wrong.