the normal content is too easy

[KizuyaKatogami]

So in what sense are you saying that FFXIV's content is streamlined? To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

I mean, besides the fact that Yoshi P himself stated that the dungeons have been streamlined? Let’s compare jobs from HW to SB to ShB and now to EW. You can see the gradual downward trend of them being streamlined and simplified. Then look at the loss of a number of dungeons, and yoshi p going on record saying he wanted dungeons to be streamlined in EW. Now we get to EW and we have constant forced single pulls in nearly if not every single dungeon. It’s not hard to see it’s gotten streamlined over the years and especially in EW. I mean we can even just look at healers, where they lost all multiple dots and dps spells.

So say for sake of argument that this happens. And then other players still think it's braindead and they complain they're bored and push for it to get harder and it does. And then other players still think it's braindead and they complain they're bored and they push for it to get harder and it does.

Where is it going to end once the developers start deciding to go down this path?

I mean this can go both ways. I could ask where is the simplification and streamlining going to end? The fact is it hasnt, its gotten worse and worse each expansion, and somehow this is okay.

[Ronduwil]

I mean, besides the fact that Yoshi P himself stated that the dungeons have been streamlined? Let’s compare jobs from HW to SB to ShB and now to EW. You can see the gradual downward trend of them being streamlined and simplified. Then look at the loss of a number of dungeons, and yoshi p going on record saying he wanted dungeons to be streamlined in EW. Now we get to EW and we have constant forced single pulls in nearly if not every single dungeon. It’s not hard to see it’s gotten streamlined over the years and especially in EW. I mean we can even just look at healers, where they lost all multiple dots and dps spells.

I get it now, and I agree with you. That having been said, I think SE was just going with the flow on this one. Players prefer streamlined dungeons. That's why the meta is to pull wall to wall. While I prefer exploratory instances, no one runs them that way. When was the last time you saw a tank clearing all the rooms in Satasha? I honestly queued unsynced for that dungeon just so I could see what it had to offer besides the straight path that everyone takes. While I don't like the current dungeon design, I understand it. Players want wall to wall pulls, and SE delivered with halls and walls. At this rate, they'll eventually do away with dungeons and turn everything into a trial because that's effectively how players want to run dungeons now: Pull all the packs to the wall and take them down in seconds before unlocking the boss fight, where all the time is being spent.

I mean this can go both ways. I could ask where is the simplification and streamlining going to end? The fact is it hasnt, its gotten worse and worse each expansion, and somehow this is okay.

Yeah, I think that's a completely separate issue from the streamlining that you pointed out. Streamlining didn't lower the challenge; it just made it easier for players to do wall to wall pulling, which seems to be what the overwhelming majority of high level players prefer. One thing I like about the leveling roulette is that I periodically queue into low level instances where the tanks have not yet been trained to run through the dungeon at breakneck speed without ever stopping unless they're forced to do so. I don't think those runs are any more challenging than the later streamlined instances.

[Deveryn]

I get it now, and I agree with you. That having been said, I think SE was just going with the flow on this one. Players prefer streamlined dungeons. That's why the meta is to pull wall to wall. While I prefer exploratory instances, no one runs them that way. When was the last time you saw a tank clearing all the rooms in Satasha? I honestly queued unsynced for that dungeon just so I could see what it had to offer besides the straight path that everyone takes. While I don't like the current dungeon design, I understand it. Players want wall to wall pulls, and SE delivered with halls and walls. At this rate, they'll eventually do away with dungeons and turn everything into a trial because that's effectively how players want to run dungeons now: Pull all the packs to the wall and take them down in seconds before unlocking the boss fight, where all the time is being spent.


Yeah, I think that's a completely separate issue from the streamlining that you pointed out. Streamlining didn't lower the challenge; it just made it easier for players to do wall to wall pulling, which seems to be what the overwhelming majority of high level players prefer. One thing I like about the leveling roulette is that I periodically queue into low level instances where the tanks have not yet been trained to run through the dungeon at breakneck speed without ever stopping unless they're forced to do so. I don't think those runs are any more challenging than the later streamlined instances.

The streamlining is all about time spent doing each piece of content. I come from the days when raiding meant spending hours on trash to maybe get to fight a boss, so when my friends who went through the same experience told me about XIV and how it had improved, I was very happy. We still catch glimpses of those days in places like Bozja and Eureka, but overall it's very satisfying to go through more segmented content than try to burn through it all in a day. The game feels less like a job, which is great when you have a real one. I disagree with the idea that the game is getting too easy. I think some just miss those bigger time investments.

[Banriikku]

The game need a difficulty curve and tutorial's at the moment both are missing and its showing. ALso the content in normal is so simple and without thought that somtimes when devs decide "this encounter needs to be spicy" a big part of the player base is shocked in for a rude awakeinging. The second trial for example, many people complaint about it. For me this shows the problem, instead of a steadly increasing difficulty, we got "there you go all this fights are idiot proof but hey this one is not". Thats were the problem is rooted. Try and ask a new tank please stop this cast of the boss or a dps please focus adds + dodge mechanics or a simple dispel from the healers. Then i meet player's that have with lvl 90 no clue about: line attack marker, gathering marker, flare marker or line/aoe tank buster marker. Even worse some bosses use "animation" to telegraph their mechanics.

First of all why are these mechanics not in a tutorial, second why is not normal for trash or bosses on normal to teach this on a regular basis. Why are some old dungeons way more difficult then new ones ? Simple, the dev's assume the normal player is a idiot with a crayon addiction. To change this, trash need to be teaching and bosses need a theme that can be recongnized and as the level increases the themed bosses will get more to their array of mechanics up to the max level of the content segment where the boss has its maximum potential. If you use this in a expansion you teach your players step by step the mechanics and how to behave in a fight. At the end is boils down to: dear dev's please stop assume all your player are idiots.

[OM3GA-Z3RO]

If I was a developer I'd think that a final boss in a dungeon should have at least 1 mechanic that if failed then it's a wipe, the EW bosses are so easy you can simply ignore mechanics and just DPS through it.

Hermes True Bravery does not get interrupted because why would you interrupt it? You can ignore it because you won't die from it, Interrupt is such a forgotten concept that over 75% of tanks and RDPS don't even know what Interject and Headgraze does and why is that? because you don't need to follow mechanics.

The main problem with FF14 is that they make content that is too easy or too difficult, they don't know how to make a middle ground and they don't make enough content to keep people occupied for at least a 1 months worth of subscription time but yeah it is expected that since every expansion has been declining on content.

[Misplaced_Marbles]

If I was a developer I'd think that a final boss in a dungeon should have at least 1 mechanic that if failed then it's a wipe, the EW bosses are so easy you can simply ignore mechanics and just DPS through it.

Yeah, but in a game like this, it's always: You died to the mechanic. Now you know what's going to happen, so you'll never die to it again. Also, getting one-shotted becuse of ignorance is the lamest thing in gaming.

The most "challenge" you can get is min-maxing the heck out of you stats. That's it.

The way people beg for punishment in every game disguising it as a "challenge" makes me thing they are trying to manifest the Grievous Miracle in real life. Stop before you succeed!

[Tehmon]

I feel like trials (except maybe the really early ones) and raids have a pretty decent difficulty, but I think they just need to speed up the momentum of dungeon boss fights especially.

The mechanics need to start overlapping sooner, and not every mechanic needs to channel for 5+ seconds.

At the point when the mechanics start overlapping and the fight actually gets a bit interesting, you've already downed 3/4 of the boss' health.

[ThaCa]

I feel like trials (except maybe the really early ones) and raids have a pretty decent difficulty, but I think they just need to speed up the momentum of dungeon boss fights especially.

The mechanics need to start overlapping sooner, and not every mechanic needs to channel for 5+ seconds.

At the point when the mechanics start overlapping and the fight actually gets a bit interesting, you've already downed 3/4 of the boss' health.

A lot of old content that was "Normal" level difficulty and fine as they were is currently "Very Easy" because the ilvl sync is way too lenient with modern Job skills. This leads to people ignoring the mechanics and even skipping quite a lot of them. If they tried to bring the content back to Normal difficulty it would make leveling and story progressing feel more meaningful while not being overtly difficult. How can you expect players to become familiar with mechanics if they can be straight up ignored or never seen in first place?
To add to this, some ARR and early HW markers should be standardized with the later expansions as some of them make no sense with modern unified markers (like stack marker being purple split marker in WoD, Sohm Al having Red and Blue split markers where Red is actually stack etc.)

EW itself is bit odd case too since the 81 dungeon is probably the hardest of them along with 90 story one (which is due 2 of the bosses being actually fairly good), most others are really simple and straightforward.

They really should hold stuff like 81 final boss and 90 first and second boss as the standard for boss fights as those feel hectic and are fun to fight. Not stuff like the 83 final boss which was major dissapointment in abilities or even worse some other 3 easy mechanic bosses.

[LeonKeyh]

A lot of old content that was "Normal" level difficulty and fine as they were is currently "Very Easy" because the ilvl sync is way too lenient with modern Job skills. This leads to people ignoring the mechanics and even skipping quite a lot of them. If they tried to bring the content back to Normal difficulty it would make leveling and story progressing feel more meaningful while not being overtly difficult. How can you expect players to become familiar with mechanics if they can be straight up ignored or never seen in first place?
To add to this, some ARR and early HW markers should be standardized with the later expansions as some of them make no sense with modern unified markers (like stack marker being purple split marker in WoD, Sohm Al having Red and Blue split markers where Red is actually stack etc.)

EW itself is bit odd case too since the 81 dungeon is probably the hardest of them along with 90 story one (which is due 2 of the bosses being actually fairly good), most others are really simple and straightforward.

They really should hold stuff like 81 final boss and 90 first and second boss as the standard for boss fights as those feel hectic and are fun to fight. Not stuff like the 83 final boss which was major dissapointment in abilities or even worse some other 3 easy mechanic bosses.

Hard agree with all points.

I played at 2.0 launch and didn't come back until 5.2 and started over and watched MTQ guides for every dungeon as I came to them. I remembered how to stop the adds in Sastasha and ran around hitting the water and noticed nobody else was doing it. It took me until StB to realize that most of the mechanisms just don't matter anymore, and that's the big problem.

Some of the EW fights were great, and others were a little disappointing. Though, I feel like the last boss in the 85 dungeon was a little too easy, but saw someone in NN saying that they gave up on running it with a trust after 60 minutes and refused to run it with a trust anymore and instead wanted to be carried..errr....run it with other people.

[WildTamarind]

Theres a few talkings points i want to address. Pardon my grammar and spelling but im typing this in what little down time i have at work.

1) the idea that the low difficulty is by design for the sake of accesability. This is flat out not true. Its a side effect of Shb redesign of the holy trinity, tanking, healer and dps. Accessibility is a great thing and I like that this company takes the effort to do that but trusts are the best approach for that because its easier unless you get a group that carries you in multiplayer. It also allows you to learn at your own pace.

2) the idea that the game didnt become easier we as a player base just got better after 10 years of playing the game. This may be true but I have two friends of comparable skill one played before Shb and the other after. Pre-shb friend did Ifrit Normal and was like "man that felt like a real boss from like a single player game. I want to queue again." Mind you we didnt wipe. We cleared it pretty easy. But the spectacle of it was awesome. Second friend post-shb did Ifrit normal and was like "Thats it? That was stupid. Very dissapointing." And it was because we destroyed him super fast. Im sorry but no amount of increase in player skill can account to that. Thats straight up raw damage increase from Shb. And I like the Shb change. It always bothered me that melee classes would purposely nerf their damage. But this great buff came at the cost of the lower level enjoyment.

3) that the current system is working for them. Its not. What do we know? We know that the hype for this game that lead to such a large increase was streamer hype and story hype from Endwalker being the finale to the story. Gameplay hype was minimal. We also know that people quit this game at ARR both because tue story takes a while to kick in but also because the gameplay is boring.

Im actualy okay with ARR being a bit boring. Weed out the impatient. I love that in this game people have the patience to withstand wiping. In WoW imediately after a wipe people leave sometimes followed with the classic "uninstal the game and kill yourself". But of course im asking for a difficulty curve so ARR can be biring but ramps up slightly harder at HW and SB. It helps keep the game interesting.

4) the idea that hardcore players are being rude and inconsiderate regarding players who do find the game hard. This may also be true but again, a proper difficulty curve actualy helps those players.

Thise of us who like harder content should be mindful of those who this game might be their first mmo or hell even their first game period. But also also those who want to keep the games current extremely easy difficulty may want to consider that perhaps you are not helping these players succeed. Anybody can improve on tue game and with the right systems we can make it easier for those who striggle with harder difficulty actually achieve competency to overcome that difficulty.