the normal content is too easy

[HyoMinPark]

Some of the ease is likely them undertuning just a bit to compensate for the stat squish. From what I understand from some WoW players, it took a full expansion for them to get the tuning just right after their stat squish.

I doubt that the stat squish had a significant effect on difficulty outside of a handful of situations (e.g., Dun Scaith hits harder now than it did in ShB for certain bosses; they actually had to heavily adjust UCoB because simply applying the stat squish resulted in the raidwides flat out killing the party even with stacked mitigation). The content was still suffering from decreased difficulty before the squish happened. P1S is almost the same difficulty as O1S—the latter of which is notorious for being cleared in one pull. The only thing that sets P1S apart Alte Roite is Intemperance is a gotcha mechanic.

SB was easier than HW in a lot of aspects, but the fights were still engaging enough for it to be relatively excused, in my opinion. ShB really started the trend of the devs heavily leaning on “accessibility” and using it as an excuse to neuter both content difficulty and job complexity. At least in SB, the easier fights could be excused because jobs still had layers of complexity to them. Now, it’s like a double whammy: easier content and a lot of the jobs are heavily streamlined and without nuance/complexity. I know I have a heavy bias as a healer main—but I was a physical ranged main prior to ShB and I honestly cannot even enjoy the role anymore because of the insistence they should be Baby’s First DPS.

I don't expect much from normal content but any old content should be balanced to be as similar as possible to when they launched to at least retain the normal level of difficulty. People skip and ignore so much mechanics in old fights that the supposed normal difficulty is very easy instead.

The state of Orbonne is truly sad. The first tier 24-mans suffer the most since they never implement item level syncs for them—but usually the third one retains some semblance of original difficulty because of the minimum item level being closer to the max item level for that expansion. But Orbonne is a sad, sad shell of itself thanks to the double whammy of auto Echo and TGC being nerfed into the ground. I never agreed with either decision because I liked how there was a fight that actually punished for trying to cheese or ignore his mechanics.

[SieyaM]

I would agree if the endgame content actually posed a challenge the way it used to. Instead, it is getting progressively easier.

The 24-mans aren’t nearly as difficult as the likes of Weeping City, Dun Scaith, and Orbonne on release. Extremes are so easy they can be done with one or no healers at release, which the latter was a completely new phenomenon. They’re definitely not the same difficulty as the HW ones. Or even some of the SB Extremes. And Savage itself is not as difficult as it used to be. And I don’t mean the overtuned mess that was Gordias, but Midas. Or even some of the Creator fights (Cruise Chaser). There are a handful of redeeming fights after HW (O3S, O4S door boss, O11S, E8S, E12S door boss), and some still that are fun enough to excuse their easier difficulty. But doing this tier Week 1 and feeling utterly not challenged by anything that wasn’t the terrible P3S arena (I have bad vision and photosensitivity) was a disappointment. Yoshida claims the second tier is harder, but he’s also said that about many other things (like the disappointment that was Endsinger EX). So I take it with a grain of salt. I’ve retired from raiding due to rapidly changing life circumstances, so I guess my friends will have to give me their opinions on it.

People who want a real challenge basically have to wait for Ultimate. And we’re lucky to get two of those an expansion. I don’t expect the Criterion dungeons to be nearly as difficult as some keep saying they will be. Not when everything else has become so watered down. I hope I’ll be proven wrong, but we shall see. The only thing I’m looking forward to in 6.2 (aside from seeing where they go with the MSQ) is Sephirot Unreal. Because so loved his EX in HW, and I can only hope the Unreal is as challenging as the original.

And yet unless it's part of an event Orbonne is universally avoided still for being too difficult and too long. Content that is part of a roulette has to be incredibly easy because as the past has taught us if it is not, players will avoid it at all costs. Our own behavior has dictated the difficulty of the content given to us.

[HyoMinPark]

And yet unless it's part of an event Orbonne is universally avoided still for being too difficult and too long. Content that is part of a roulette has to be incredibly easy because as the past has taught us if it is not, players will avoid it at all costs. Our own behavior has dictated the difficulty of the content given to us.

Orbonne was not back-breakingly difficult. It was challenging, actually punished you for trying to ignore the mechanics, and you couldn’t just slam your face on the keyboard or completely AFK and win. And if I’ve learned anything, there’s a lot of people in this game that throws their hands in the air if something caused them the slightest bit of difficulty increase.

Personally, I’d rather do Orbonne than any of the CT raids. And I’ve met other players that feel similarly now that Orbonne is popping the Alliance Roulette. Orbonne would have likely been avoided less if LotA or ST wasn’t half the time for the same EXP. Scaling EXP with the level of the raids would have been a better way to go instead of completely destroying one of the best 24-mans this game has ever seen. Now I don’t even bother with Alliance Roulette because I am sick of CT/Void Ark.

[SnowVix]

The 24-mans aren’t nearly as difficult as the likes of Weeping City, Dun Scaith, and Orbonne on release. Extremes are so easy they can be done with one or no healers at release, which the latter was a completely new phenomenon. They’re definitely not the same difficulty as the HW ones. Or even some of the SB Extremes. And Savage itself is not as difficult as it used to be. And I don’t mean the overtuned mess that was Gordias, but Midas. Or even some of the Creator fights (Cruise Chaser). There are a handful of redeeming fights after HW (O3S, O4S door boss, O11S, E8S, E12S door boss), and some still that are fun enough to excuse their easier difficulty.

I, too, like to compare the first tier of content to late expansion tiers and pretend it's a valid comparison.

[HyoMinPark]

I, too, like to compare the first tier of content to late expansion tiers and pretend it's a valid comparison.

What are you even talking about? Did you read what I wrote, or did you just opt to spout off nonsense? It’s a fact that a lot of older content was a lot more challenging on release when you compare it to what we have now.

Anyone who says that Aglaia or Hydaelyn EX or Zodiark EX or P1S are harder than some of the content I mentioned clearly never did the old fights when they were relevant.

Rabanastre was more challenging than Aglaia was, since you’re so insistent on a “first tier only” comparison. Rabanastre was more challenging than Copied Factory. Weeping City was harder than Puppet’s Bunker. I’d say it was also harder than Ridorana. Dun Scaith and Orbonne are relatively the same difficulty, but they both torch Tower at Paradigm’s Breach. I have no expectations that the second and third tiers of The Twelve will live up to the absolute insanity that was Orbonne when it was relevant. Considering how much people complained about the latter.

Cruise Chaser (A11S) and Omega (O11S) were most certainly harder than Daddy Thancred (E11S). Daddy’s Thancred’s most complicated phase is the last one and a decent party skipped 2/3 of his cycles at the end.

As crappy as Bismarck EX was, you weren’t seeing it done with NO HEALERS during its relevant patch. Same with Ravana EX. Lakshmi could be done with one healer, but not with none. Neither could Susano. People didn’t start dropping the healer until the end of the expansion. No other EX have lived up to Thordan EX or Sephirot EX, relevant patch equivalent or later. For the latter, you’re speaking nonsense if you try to say Byakko EX or Ruby Weapon EX were anywhere close to the difficulty of Sephirot. And I doubt any x.2 EX will ever beat him. Shinryu and Hades EX were good fights, but Thordan wipes the floor with both of them. And we don’t talk about the massive disappointment that is Endsinger EX.

Midas in and of itself was harder than Sigmascape and Eden’s Verse combined. I enjoyed God Kefka (O8S) and Shiva (E8S) as fights, but it’s laughable to say they hold a torch to Brute Justice (A8S). Rock ‘em Sock ‘em Robots (A6S) were nerfed while relevant; meanwhile, Chadarnook (O6S) was a literal striking dummy. Ifrit/Garuda and their love child boss (E6S) were harder than Chadarnook, but that’s a low bar to beat.

But tell me you never did the fights I listed when they were relevant without telling me you never did them when they were relevant.

[Lauront]

Because thats the kind of SMN that would waste a GCD on a 200 health heal when they could be doing around 20,000 damage with their spells. I don't think it can even save a tank from an auto attack at this point. But instead of contributing to killing the boss quicker so the party doesn't wipe to a damage check or have to see additional mechanics that could wipe the party they have decided to waste their GCD on something worthless prolonging the encounter instead of adding value.

For a SMN heal to barely save a fight it would mean that the fight would be easily winnable if the SMN actually damaged the boss and killed it faster.

There is such a thing as opportunity cost and efficiency. A RDM heal and a PLD clemency may be a different argument because even though it is preferable for them to DPS there are some scenarios where they can sustain party members long enough to win an encounter. A SMN heal is so inefficient it has no such capability.

There's also the fact that SMN can tap into some decent healing via simply continuing its dps rotation into the phoenix phase. Granted, it may not coincide with when you need it but I think your other points solidify why Physick has no real use case here.

[Roflcopter]

There's also the fact that SMN can tap into some decent healing via simply continuing its dps rotation into the phoenix phase. Granted, it may not coincide with when you need it but I think your other points solidify why Physick has no real use case here.

Physik is totally useless. No good summoner actually uses it in any relevant content.

[Theodric]

A vocal portion of the FFXIV community seems to consist of those who would unironically join a running club and beg the leader to force everybody to walk at a snail's pace only to call anyone asking to for a modicum of challenge an 'elitist'. All whilst swearing up and down that maybe a running club isn't for them.

[Ronduwil]

"Regularly?"

You mean once.

At least twice last year: Once in July and once in December. I'm guessing we're due again when the patch hits, but we'll see.

Am completely unwilling to spend same amount of time I have on past stuffs explaining why it is impossible to appeal to everyone.

Agreed. You appeal to as many people as you can, and that's what they're doing.

Soooo how do we deduce how well FF14 is doing?

The forums? Everyone states that we are small percentage but data sets are commonly small percentage of greater whole yet still valuable.

So you know enough about statistics to understand the value of samples, but not enough to distinguish between a random sample and one that skews heavily towards hardcore game enthusiasts. The forum is a great measure of how FFXIV enthusiasts feel about the game. It's not a credible representaton of the player population as a whole, however. The vast majority of casual players never even log into the forums.

Twitch?

How much money does SE make from Twitch? Zero. At best, it's cheap advertising, and at this point, they've achieved market saturation with all the hype they generated last year. They'll be just fine for a while with literally zero Twitch views. When the next content drop happens and the hype around New World and Lost Ark dies down, they'll establish a Twitch presence once more.

A vocal portion of the FFXIV community seems to consist of those who would unironically join a running club and beg the leader to force everybody to walk at a snail's pace only to call anyone asking to for a modicum of challenge an 'elitist'. All whilst swearing up and down that maybe a running club isn't for them.

It's more like we're all in a walking club, and a bunch of elitists on these forums are complaining that it's not a running club. After all, this thread started with the OP demanding that the normal raids be made harder to suit their preference for Savage and Extreme content. I don't consider players who prefer Savage and Extreme content to be elitists. However, I definitely consider the players who are demanding that Normal difficulty be increased to be elitists. If you want to be in the running group, be in the running group. Just don't demand that the rest of us who are happily walking already start running just to make you happy.

Honestly, I've seen these complaints regarding "dumbing down" for over a decade. I lost count of the number of times that WoW players in MoP recounted the glory days of Vanilla WoW with its massive difficulty. Then Classic WoW dropped and the goggles came off: Single button rotations, tank and spank raid bosses, and mechanics whose complexity often boiled down to splitting into stacked groups and standing in place while a handful of players managed debuffs. Suddenly no one complains that WoW is too easy anymore.

[LittleImp]

How much money does SE make from Twitch? Zero. At best, it's cheap advertising, and at this point, they've achieved market saturation with all the hype they generated last year. They'll be just fine for a while with literally zero Twitch views. When the next content drop happens and the hype around New World and Lost Ark dies down, they'll establish a Twitch presence once more.

Millions of dollars. The games active population doubled during the month Asmongold and other major streamers began streaming it, despite being in the midst of a major content drought.

The current population is now lower than during that Pre-EW content drought, indicating EW has a lower player retention rate than previous expansions.

It's more like we're all in a walking club, and a bunch of elitists on these forums are complaining that it's not a running club. After all, this thread started with the OP demanding that the normal raids be made harder to suit their preference for Savage and Extreme content. I don't consider players who prefer Savage and Extreme content to be elitists. However, I definitely consider the players who are demanding that Normal difficulty be increased to be elitists. If you want to be in the running group, be in the running group. Just don't demand that the rest of us who are happily walking already start running just to make you happy.

The games normal-mode difficulty has not been consistent over its lifecycle, so these types of analogy's aren't great.

Coil raids were considered base difficulty at one time. Trials like Ravana, Sephirot and Titan had perma-death mechanics in normal mode. Eden Normal raids are often significantly more difficult than Alexander raids or Pandaemonium raids. Return to Ivalice is VASTLY more difficult than Void Ark, Nier or post-ARR CT. Yoshida indicated recently that the new 24 man series is more in line with Ivalice difficulty, which would mean the difficulty has increased from last expansion.

You lump yourself in with the people who are 'happily walking in the walking club', but you yourself were supporting the idea that certain trials should be made easier in another thread. It's a much more mixed issue, where the game could really go either way and you have people with different preferences tugging at both ends.