Trick Attack

[Aravell]

I wonder when "giving feedback to the developers in the format that they ask for" turned into "whining".

Regardless of that point, we have already been told very clearly that Trick Attack is being turned into a personal buff and Mug is going to be the new party buff, given that nothing was ever said about the timers on those abilities being changed, we can be certain that nothing will change in that regard, so everything we know so far is based on fact. Another fact that we know is that having the sole remaining 60s party buff stripped away will make everything more samey and boring. So these are all known facts so far.......what hypothesis are we making again? What shot in the dark are we taking?

Feedback is best given before a change is made, because once change is made, it would be easier to do nothing than to revert it.

[Manofpassion]

If they didn't want feedback/whining/whatever you wanna call it, they would just not have announced or shown any changes in the live letter, quite simply. Perhaps I am näive, but I think they announced the changes so they know whether the fanbase hates it or not. Sams are unamused, I think the same can be said for nins. A casual glance at their own forums would show people disapprove of these changes.

But then, drks and whms, Healers and tanks in general have been saying square is crap at designing their role, and nothing has changed as far as I can tell. Probably wishful thinking on my part the devs actually care tbh

[LeonKeyh]

Feedback is best given before a change is made, because once change is made, it would be easier to do nothing than to revert it.

To be fair; I would take feedback prior to the change with a grain of salt because the customers don't know all of the changes being made and how those changes interact and how everything coalesces.

I'm not saying that they will stop ignoring the feedback after the change is made nor am I excusing all of these threads being seemingly "ignored" right now. I also know that a lot of players can easily see how this is going to play out (and are probably right about it). But I'm also sure that they did some testing and someone thinks that this change is going to work well and their experience with the change and the rest of the changes that we might not know about is more tangible than people's feedback based off what they _think_ it's going to be like based off of partial information.

[aloneatsea]

Here's my question: is this whining a testable hypothesis?

6.1 comes out next week. Give it a few weeks for people to play with it. Say, a month after 6.1, will there have been a mass exodus of NIN mains, or will it be like SMN? The forums/Reddit/Discord were nigh unanimous in declaring SMN dead forever, but I've never seen as many SMNs as I have since 6.0 (and I believe that there was some evidence that there were, in fact, more people playing SMN, though I can't find it atm).

I'm old enough to remember forums/Reddit/Discord declaring NIN unplayable because of Raiju—in hindsight, obviously wrong. I'm sure that this time will be different, though—this time.

There's already been a mass exodus of NIN mains -- the very Raiju changes that made NIN 'unplayable' (at least in Zodiark EX) caused the population of Ninja players to plummet through the floor. Ninja is still the least played job in Endwalker, though it is finally recovering as of the 6.08 changes. The gap between it and MCH has been reducing every week.

You say that the forums declaring NIN unplayable was obviously wrong, but the fact that the NIN population dropped so dramatically relative to Shadowbringers (we must consider RPR being introduced, of course, but I imagine we'd have seen the drop spread more evenly across the other melee jobs) and the fact that Square Enix made very rapid changes to how Raijus worked seems like quite clear evidence to me that Ninja was indeed in a dire state and needed to be rectified quickly -- which it was, thank god.

It was still in a weak state until the 6.08 changes, which arguably made it too strong, but with the 6.05 and 6.08 changes, the number of NIN players began to increase again.

Will it be different this time? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm certainly not a fortune teller. I can, however, confidently say that these changes are unwanted, do not make sense alongside the given reason for the change (increased synergy with other jobs), and corrode what is considered by many the identity of Ninja at this point in time. Ergo, I would like these changes to be strongly reconsidered.

[LeonKeyh]

But then, drks and whms, Healers and tanks in general have been saying square is crap at designing their role, and nothing has changed as far as I can tell. Probably wishful thinking on my part the devs actually care tbh

I know that Tanks/Healers mains have been jumping into all of these threads with firsttimememe.jpg, but I think there's some differences between these changes and the complaints that tanks/healers have. Given the role restrictions in most content, the ideal population ratio would be 2:1:1 D:H:T; MOST MMOs have a crazy high number of DPS players and a small number of healers/tanks I imagine that 6-8:1:1 is believable. The changes that they have made to Tanks/Healers have likely seen an increase in the number of people playing those roles which is good for EVERYONE. Lowering the skill floor of Tanks and Healers allows for more people to pick them up which lowers queue times for everyone. I'm not saying that they couldn't have done that a better way, but I strongly believe that has been pushing a lot of the changes over there that people complain about (Job specific complaints surrounding WHM/DRK are separate and just a lack of good design).

For DPS, they don't need to worry about increasing the number of players playing it and it's unlikely that a DPS player will stop playing NIN/SAM and start playing Tank/Healer; So really there isn't a whole lot of "gain" for them making this change and as such it is certainly more possible that they will back out these changes. Definitely more likely than Tanks/Healers getting any of the changes they want at least.

[Manofpassion]

To be fair; I would take feedback prior to the change with a grain of salt because the customers don't know all of the changes being made and how those changes interact and how everything coalesces.

I'm not saying that they will stop ignoring the feedback after the change is made nor am I excusing all of these threads being seemingly "ignored" right now. I also know that a lot of players can easily see how this is going to play out (and are probably right about it). But I'm also sure that they did some testing and someone thinks that this change is going to work well and their experience with the change and the rest of the changes that we might not know about is more tangible than people's feedback based off what they _think_ it's going to be like based off of partial information.

I wish I could be as optimistic as you mate, that the devs will actually make sure the changes work well. Having to put throwing daggers in trick during zodiark ex was a very low point in my ninja career. And they truly playtested 6 gapclosers in a row, and thought to themselves “one of the most flexible melee dps in game would surely appreciate being animation locked for 10 secs every minute”. Kind of shows their play testing is a joke imo. Will the changes work, at the basic level like the attacks registering? I am confident it will. Will it be fun? No confidence at all. I appreciate people giving square the benefit of the doubt, but I think me and a lot of nin mains in ew have had their patience worn thin. Apologies for being too cynical, but square should know nins are sick of their crappy designs and need more info to mitigate any backlash. Whoever the community manager is at square needs to pull their finger out.

[Aravell]

To be fair; I would take feedback prior to the change with a grain of salt because the customers don't know all of the changes being made and how those changes interact and how everything coalesces.

I'm not saying that they will stop ignoring the feedback after the change is made nor am I excusing all of these threads being seemingly "ignored" right now. I also know that a lot of players can easily see how this is going to play out (and are probably right about it). But I'm also sure that they did some testing and someone thinks that this change is going to work well and their experience with the change and the rest of the changes that we might not know about is more tangible than people's feedback based off what they _think_ it's going to be like based off of partial information.

Even so, I think it's fairly self-explanatory why phrases like "We can't be sure what the devs are doing, but I'm sure they know what they're doing!" is doing nothing to assuage fears and dispel doubts. That's why we're giving our feedback in the hopes that the devs understand there is a dislike towards the direction they're intending to take NIN in. Yes, none of us know what they're planning, the point we want to make here is that we don't like what they plan and we want them to reconsider, many users have already mentioned that even their explanations as to why they're making this change don't even make sense, there's a lot of uncertainty right now and so there's nothing to do but leave feedback.

[aloneatsea]

To put it simply, I would much rather complain and be wrong than stay silent, receive awful changes, and have the developers say 'we received no feedback'.

[Manofpassion]

Yoshida will still gleefully read out the patch notes and say something like “wow, people have given feedback they really like this change to trick! Please look forward to it” with a massive smile on his face, but at least if we complain now we know we tried.

Some people have said trick is too hard to balance, but to be frank, that is their job and something they have to deal with, not us. It's been balanced around for 4 expansions, and now they just suddenly can't be arsed? That is hard to swallow. Of course, we can only assume, for the devs don't know how to communicate.

Furthermore, it'll at least make even more clear where we stand with the job balance devs. Next time around I will know there is no point in giving feedback and can just go watch netflix instead. It is what it is.

[Manofpassion]

https://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...c253b189f43f0e

Well, trick isn't mentioned anywhere. Or any of their proposed changes in the live letter. This either means they're walking back all their changes or they just couldn't be bothered to update us while continuing to commit to their dumb decisions. The changes to bard and dancer seem good I guess.