Trick Attack

[aloneatsea]

Honestly, the new TA/Mug maybe changes little about the Ninja themselves... it's still an odd minute buff that can even go as far as being a buff.. I'm not really sure since I don't main NIN.

But what I'm sure of is that impacts the rest of us, because it was fun to keep track of a Ninja's TA windows to seize the moment and unload some big hits.

As a GNB the change to trick attack is pretty sad. It used to line up with my highest damage no mercy window, and now my three minute window doesn't have the potential to be buffed by ninjas. Bloodfest feels just a little bit worse, I'll miss trick attack.

On paper it doesn't seem like the Mug change impacts Ninja much, but it does a shocking amount. Ninja has a very strict burst window, so even adjusting that a little bit throws the whole thing off. We have to deliberately drift Mug by a GCD at the two-minute mark too, now, otherwise it misaligns with the rest of the party.

But yes -- Trick was not just a benefit to the Ninja but also the party. It feels like that much more depth has been lost from the game by no longer rewarding Gunbreakers or Samurai or Reapers for spilling their burst into Trick. Now the only thing that matters is the two-minute mark.



How boring.

[aloneatsea]

It went from, "Ten-Chi-Jin-SPLASH-STAB!!!!!!!" to "Oh... mug is up again." *click*

Apologies for double-posting, but I was doing a little re-reading, and I really do think this captures a lot of what feels wrong about these changes. For eight or so years, Ninja's party buff has required precisely five button presses to activate, with roughly ~20s of leeway. You activate Suiton - Ten, Chi, Jin, Suiton - and then activate Trick Attack once it's ready. Mug has none of the equivalent build-up or preparation. It's simply a button you press, no special animation or sound effect or anything. It's just... a button. That's it.

Suiton -> Trick was a lot of work to set up a party buff, but because it was so powerful, it felt worth it. We give up a powerful damage mudra (likely Raiton) to give the party a huge boost in damage. Now it's just for us, apparently. It really doesn't feel good...

[Wyssahtyn]

So, I queued for expert for the first time since the patch, and during the first trash pull, it really sank in that Mug is really a bloated ability now what with it being the vuln debuff and the ninki generator in one. In my efforts to overcome the (once again) literal years worth of muscle memory, it sort of slipped my mind that it was still the ninki generator as I focused on mentally labeling it as the vuln debuff (oof all that lost dps). Really such a meaningless change that's caused more harm than good imo, but I suppose it's to be expected when the director of the game spouts off stuff like "players enjoying the current iteration of a job is troublesome because it makes future changes complicated".

[Yuurei_007]

+1 for reverting change, it was good the way it was in 6.08, mug having too much properties and not fun to play now. If the team wants a 10% personal buff and 5% team buff on trick attack, i don't mind.

[aloneatsea]

So, I queued for expert for the first time since the patch, and during the first trash pull, it really sank in that Mug is really a bloated ability now what with it being the vuln debuff and the ninki generator in one. In my efforts to overcome the (once again) literal years worth of muscle memory, it sort of slipped my mind that it was still the ninki generator as I focused on mentally labeling it as the vuln debuff (oof all that lost dps). Really such a meaningless change that's caused more harm than good imo, but I suppose it's to be expected when the director of the game spouts off stuff like "players enjoying the current iteration of a job is troublesome because it makes future changes complicated".

It really does feel quite bloated, doesn't it? Especially in single-target, because when preparing to burst, you want to build up as much gauge as possible, right? Ninja is now the only job that cannot do that without losing damage overall... if we're over 60 Ninki when Mug comes up, we have to choose between delaying Mug to spend some gauge or simply overcapping... which doesn't feel great! I think every other job which builds up gauge in a similar way is able to max it out right before bursting... it doesn't feel good at all...

[nineofroses]

As someone who got into savage raiding this expansion with a casual static, I wanted to add on to the thread and say that I am really disappointed that they removed NIN's one unique support ability, with the added knife-twist (ha) of not providing any other support utility to justify NIN's identity as a "support melee". I'm
very unclear on why they made this change in 6.1 instead of pushing this change to 7.0, where they would have more time to develop alternative utility for NIN besides TA and do a full redesign of the job if needed, instead of leaving us with nothing besides "generic melee DPS who sometimes contributes 0 damage due to rabbiting".

My static members and I really enjoyed strategising around NIN's 1min TA window, especially for jobs that could build up gauge to spend on odd-minute Tricks. Some of them also say that they rely on seeing TA being up to time their own rotation properly. Doing re-clears and progging P3S this week, Mug really feels too bloated as a ninki generator AND a party buff. If the dev team wants to kill NIN's "support melee" identity, fine, whatever, I can be a selfish DPS, but don't further reduce NIN's flexibility in rotation. Mug feeds into an extremely hectic burst window and I would have preferred it retain its role as "additional Ninki generator you can drift if needed" instead of "button you MUST press every 2min off CD". For example, killing the big bird adds in P3S was no issue for me pre-6.1 because I could hit Mug to generate extra Ninki, but after 6.1 it felt awkward to have to hold it and hold it and hold it so that you could use it for a party buff reopener after adds.

Also, I play on 175-185ping from SEA on NA, and the fact that you have to double weave Mug and TA now for optimal play kills me. There were other more useful adjustments they could have made for NIN and this was not it.

[aloneatsea]

As someone who got into savage raiding this expansion with a casual static, I wanted to add on to the thread and say that I am really disappointed that they removed NIN's one unique support ability, with the added knife-twist (ha) of not providing any other support utility to justify NIN's identity as a "support melee". I'm
very unclear on why they made this change in 6.1 instead of pushing this change to 7.0, where they would have more time to develop alternative utility for NIN besides TA and do a full redesign of the job if needed, instead of leaving us with nothing besides "generic melee DPS who sometimes contributes 0 damage due to rabbiting".

My static members and I really enjoyed strategising around NIN's 1min TA window, especially for jobs that could build up gauge to spend on odd-minute Tricks. Some of them also say that they rely on seeing TA being up to time their own rotation properly. Doing re-clears and progging P3S this week, Mug really feels too bloated as a ninki generator AND a party buff. If the dev team wants to kill NIN's "support melee" identity, fine, whatever, I can be a selfish DPS, but don't further reduce NIN's flexibility in rotation. Mug feeds into an extremely hectic burst window and I would have preferred it retain its role as "additional Ninki generator you can drift if needed" instead of "button you MUST press every 2min off CD". For example, killing the big bird adds in P3S was no issue for me pre-6.1 because I could hit Mug to generate extra Ninki, but after 6.1 it felt awkward to have to hold it and hold it and hold it so that you could use it for a party buff reopener after adds.

Also, I play on 175-185ping from SEA on NA, and the fact that you have to double weave Mug and TA now for optimal play kills me. There were other more useful adjustments they could have made for NIN and this was not it.

I think the point about ping is really salient. If you're unable to double-weave (i.e. you have ping >40ms), you're forced to delay Trick a GCD, which in certain compositions means putting a chunk of your burst outside party buffs. Brotherhood, Chain Stratagem, Divination, Battle Litany, Radiant Finale, Battle Voice -- all of these abilities are 15s, which means that assuming your party is popping on cooldown, a high-ping Ninja player delaying Trick will mean missing at best a Raiju, and at worst two Raijus & two Bhavacakras, one of which would be Meisui-enhanced. That's quite a chunk of damage to lose. I suppose you could "compromise" by deliberately clipping your GCD, but that feels like a terrible solution that still results in high-ping players being punished for the crime of not living in Sacramento.

[aloneatsea]

Welp, 6.11 drops and absolutely no changes whatsoever for Ninja.



I know it's probably a little soon for them to be able to revert the changes, but yikes... not even a QOL change for Mug? Anything to make hitting it not feel like shit what with it gaining us 40 Ninki? Man...

[Equitable_Remedy]

It sometimes feels like I'm playing a different game than forum posters.

The opener changed slightly, and overcoming muscle memory took a day or so. Trick windows play very much the same as before. Mug windows are also very similar, except that the boss has two debuffs instead of one.

I liked NIN before, and I like NIN now for the same reasons that I liked it before.

[Jaquan]

One quick question though... If Double weaving TA into Mug is hard via ping can't you use Mug about 5 seconds before other team buffs are used? Isn't it 20 seconds compared to other major buffs lasting 15 seconds?