Trick Attack

[Manofpassion]

Honestly, by making trick attack personal and removing its whole gimmick of damage buff for party minute, to me they've just kept the trick attack name but replaced it with a move that does something else entirely. As a ninja, and i think I speak for a good portion of the player base, we want to support or buff our team. If we cared about big personal dps, we would just play black mage or samurai - i think current trick is synonymous with ninjas identity. That's not necessarily a bad thing - lots of classes are synonymous with certain skills, such dancer's dance partner, astrologian's play cards, and drk's tbn. Lots of people enjoy those classes because of those skills in particular.

Why ninjas gimmick is being changed to two minutes is something i don't understand. One minute raid buffs will end up lining up with two minutes anyway, so there is synergy still. The game is already chock full of 2 minute buffs, one buff being unique and on a minute cool down is just more interesting. I'm not an expert on game balance, but surely one buff being on a minute cooldown won't break the game - if need be, nerf it to be a 4% damage buff instead. We won't be happy about it, but at least it won't make us have to relearn our rotation for the third time in a year. Honestly, if they want us to not be a slave to trick attack as much, reduce the power of the buff, but make stuff like raiton or bhava do more potency. I'm no game designer, but that seems like a reasonable enough suggestion.

[Memoranda]

I am largely confused as to why people are so upset with Trick Attack now being personal and Mug being everyone else. 6.0 saw burst cool downs being moved to two minute cycles. With trick attack being one minute, you'd end up with odd cycles where TA wasn't really providing a whole lot of extra benefit because the burst cool downs on everyone else were still cooling down. Mug changes this, while also making it something other than a Ninki bot. Realistically I think Mug not being a Ninki bot is what everyone is actually upset about, but in a effort to not be parroting what everyone else is already complaining about we have folks who are complaining that TA better lines up with everyone else's cool downs.

Do I think there should be some other way to generate 50 Ninki outside of Meisui? I don't really know. I'm just a casual player here. But I do know that folks complaining about mug increasing party damage in line with every other two minute cool down is a bit silly.

[aloneatsea]

removed for brevity

You'd be shocked at how much benefit odd minute Trick Attacks provided -- not just in damage, but also in fun for other jobs. Gunbreaker I believe has natural burst at 1 minute, Warrior now lines up, even White Mage has a one minute Afflatus Misery, and other jobs like Dark Knight, Reaper and Samurai are able to pool excess resources for odd minute Tricks. These jobs benefit from and are rewarded for lining up their burst at odd minutes in a world where one-minute party buffs exist.

Now, they do not, and there is no reward for playing deliberately at any point other than the two minute mark.

Not to mention, Mug already had a role to play in Ninja's rotation -- a Ninki gainer. That, and it was already considered redundant or something that could be removed, given how little it plays into the class fantasy. Now it's overloaded with effects, and Ninja's party buff doesn't even look or sound cool to balm the burn of now being exactly like Monk.

[rewd]

I am honestly stumped by the negative feelings the community has towards this TA change, because I see nothing but positives. I feel it's an amazing change, and I literally couldn't be happier unless they also made Kassatsu guarantee a crit.

I don't care NIN scales hard late tier. If you beat the DPS check then that's it. You get more gear making the DPS check more and more arbitrary. The fact that TA scales hard is just a toss-up. If you could already beat the DPS check before you scale hard then what's the point of doing more DPS?

I am excited to have my job feel strong, always, independently of if my team decided to eat chalk during raid.

You only care about clearing, other people enjoy doing speed kills.

You don't care about optimizing, other people do. Some people even like the thought of adapting and adjusting to an unconvential timer that spices things up a bit in an otherwise extremely scripted and predicatable game.

Different people have different tastes and inclinations and all of them are valid. For a game that prides itself in letting you play every job on the same character, such widespread homogenization is extremely tone-deaf.

You want a pet job? Nah.
You'd like a healer that requires more than one (1) brain cell with engaging downtime? Think of the casuals.
What about a class with meaningful resource management? Are you even listening to yourself?! Management implies failure and I'm literally shaking at the thought of it. tw: failure.
A busy job, maybe? How am I supposed to watch Netflix, then? Thank God 6.2 will fix DRG and AST being too busy.

And you wonder why people aren't happy about Riddle of Trick and Brothermug?

[Theihe]

You only care about clearing, other people enjoy doing speed kills.

You don't care about optimizing, other people do. Some people even like the thought of adapting and adjusting to an unconvential timer that spices things up a bit in an otherwise extremely scripted and predicatable game.

Different people have different tastes and inclinations and all of them are valid. For a game that prides itself in letting you play every job on the same character, such widespread homogenization is extremely tone-deaf.

You want a pet job? Nah.
You'd like a healer that requires more than one (1) brain cell with engaging downtime? Think of the casuals.
What about a class with meaningful resource management? Are you even listening to yourself?! Management implies failure and I'm literally shaking at the thought of it. tw: failure.
A busy job, maybe? How am I supposed to watch Netflix, then? Thank God 6.2 will fix DRG and AST being too busy.

And you wonder why people aren't happy about Riddle of Trick and Brothermug?

You are mistaken.
I do speedkills.
I optimize.
I perform at a very high level.
I cleared TEA on NIN back in ShB when the content was actually hard and required optimization.
My logs are public.
Do not be condecending.

You can still optimize while not having your job be gimped early in the tier. This changes nothing about NIN at all. You still use TA every minute. You just get a new buff you need to keep track off. If anything this ups the skill ceiling of the job, while bringing up the base damage.


I perform better at NIN than most of the people in this thread, if they even play the job AT ALL- which seems to not be the case for a lot of these complainers. Pray excuse me if I don't take some people's criticism seriously regarding a job they do not play, as they tell me how I'm supposed to feel about a job I've sunk thousands of hours into.

Patchnotes aren't even out and people are acting like they got their favorite toy away from them.

Being the lowest DPS in your category early tier, being compensated by "oh but for speedkills you're great!" isn't healthy. Speedkills are nieche enough as is, and isn't relevant until everyone has their BiS. Or you know, just bring MNK who functions well early tier, aswell as later on.

EDIT:
This isn't a change made to "dumb down" NIN- it's a balancing patch to bring them in line with other jobs in terms of how they scale.
The devs have decided to put everything on a 2 min buff rotation. We can complain all we want about that specifically, but that doesn't change the fact that, well, we're all just bursting at 2 min now. Bringing NIN in line was expected.

[rewd]

You are mistaken.
I do speedkills.
I optimize.
I perform at a very high level.
I cleared TEA on NIN back in ShB when the content was actually hard and required optimization.
My logs are public.
Do not be condecending.

You can still optimize while not having your job be gimped early in the tier. This changes nothing about NIN at all. You still use TA every minute. You just get a new buff you need to keep track off. If anything this ups the skill ceiling of the job, while bringing up the base damage.


I perform better at NIN than most of the people in this thread, if they even play the job AT ALL- which most seems to not be the case for a lot of these complainers. Pray excuse me if I don't take some people's criticism seriously regarding a job they do not play, as they tell me how I'm supposed to feel about a job I've sunk thousands of hours into.

Patchnotes aren't even out and people are acting like they got their favorite toy away from them.

Being the lowest DPS in your category early tier, being compensated by "oh but for speedkills you're great!" isn't healthy. Speedkills are nieche enough as is, and isn't relevant until everyone has their BiS. Or you know, just bring MNK who functions well early tier, aswell as later on.

EDIT:
This isn't a change made to "dumb down" NIN- it's a balancing patch to bring them in line with other jobs in terms of how they scale.
The devs have decided to put everything on a 2 min buff rotation. We can complain all we want about that specifically, but that doesn't change the fact that, well, we're all just bursting at 2 min now. Bringing NIN in line was expected.

I'm not mistaken, you don't express yourself properly. If you do speedruns, then you shouldn't ask yourself what's the point of doing more DPS once you get the clear, otherwise getting a clear represents the end of your gameplay (which as I have already say, it's valid).

I'm glad you perform better than most, it's still not relevant to the discussion. And also no one said this is "dumbing down" the job. I'm apparently condescending but you say that you don't take people's criticism unless they are XY good and you think that's normal. Good to know.

Ah yes, I almost forgot. Let's wait until patch notes (that won't have anything in it that will change minds). Next, we will wait until 6.2. Then 6.3 Then, *checks note* we will wait until the new expansion. Then the Media Tour, then...

Following your logic, they should also remove cards. You play one at odd minutes. This isn't 120s, so it needs to go. Moreover, AST depends on other players, so cards are a huge no-no. There, we also reduced how busy AST feels for everyone that doesn't like it. You like how busy it felt? Uh, idk, you'll find something else.

[Theihe]

I'm not mistaken, you don't express yourself properly. If you do speedruns, then you shouldn't ask yourself what's the point of doing more DPS once you get the clear, otherwise getting a clear represents the end of your gameplay (which as I have already say, it's valid).

I'm glad you perform better than most, it's still not relevant to the discussion. And also no one said this is "dumbing down" the job. I'm apparently condescending but you say that you don't take people's criticism unless they are XY good and you think that's normal. Good to know.

Ah yes, I almost forgot. Let's wait until patch notes (that won't have anything in it that will change minds). Next, we will wait until 6.2. Then 6.3 Then, *checks note* we will wait until the new expansion. Then the Media Tour, then...

Following your logic, they should also remove cards. You play one at odd minutes. This isn't 120s, so it needs to go. Moreover, AST depends on other players, so cards are a huge no-no. There, we also reduced how busy AST feels for everyone that doesn't like it. You like how busy it felt? Uh, idk, you'll find something else.

You are missing my point. The reality is that once you beat the DPS check there isn't actually any reason to do more DPS. The first, and only real hurdle, is beating the DPS check once, at which point it gets continously easier.
If one job has a rougher time meeting that check because "they scale harder later" then they, and their team, is arbitrarily taxed.
Speedkills is a player generated challenge which fills no function outside of filling time between patches.

It is relevant that people saying "this change is bad" doesn't actively play the job. A lot of the comments are from DPS saying "oh I like putting abilities under trick", which, while being wholesome, isn't relevant to if this change is better for the NIN players themselves.

We should wait until the patchnotes, and they will give us proper potency changes alongside them. People jump the gun so hard without getting the full picture. Don't strawman my argument.

This isn't my argument. It's disingenuous for you to imply such.

[kackal_Jackal]

You are mistaken.
I do speedkills.
I optimize.
I perform at a very high level.
...

I understand why you reacted this way, but this was unnecessary. I don't get why you're bragging on the official forums and bringing up logs to bolster yourself. No speedrunner would come in here and do that anyway. And the idea of 'not taking people's ideas seriously if they perform worse'? A player does not need to be amazing log-wise to know what they're talking about.

However, I mostly disagree with the points you made. For the sake of balance and removing the disparity between NIN players, the proposal is deleting NIN's unique staple and forcing it on the 2m like everyone else is just a sleeper. MNK and DRG are just alternate versions of the same job, rotation and buff type/% aside. Will it make balance easier on SE's behalf? Sure, I suppose. Doesn't mean this change is any good.

NIN's rotation is unlikely to change very much, but a lot of jobs find it very fun to play around Trick Attack or have it on their radar. You can see the difference between a good DRK and a bad DRK solely based how well they can work around Trick, same goes for SAMS, DNCs, RPRs... that have that option to do so, but otherwise it won't naturally happen. You see it as a restriction, others find it fun and rewarding.

Also are you suggesting a NIN's lower personal contributes less into buffs? A job that has one of the highest 2m bursts and is respectable every minute? The job is incredible for buffs. aDPS is a very flawed metric though if you don't strip down the comp first.

Even so, what class you decide to bring to prog does not matter when savage content is clearable on any job outside maybe week 1 if the potency tuning is just terrible. NINs can clear the content fine without the need for players to "plan and optimize". Especially given their excellent disengage ability and simple enough filler that makes mechanical execution simple, something that other melee may just not have during prog. Week 1 & 2 prog groups have brought NIN in the past and had no issues, despite the scaling. Early PF can clear just fine with a NIN. With any job in that matter. If you can't clear the week 2 dps check and you're on NIN, I think you have other issues unrelated to Trick Attack (:

That is just the nature of buff jobs and unless we want carbon copies of the same job for "balance", some jobs do better in certain situations than others. Having a unique staple means a job has both weaknesses and strengths, and if you want jobs to be viable in every situation, we might as well be all playing the same job! Because that's what direction we're heading in and honestly it's rather boring.

And shouldn't this argument apply to tether and litany as well, both buffs are just slightly behind Trick's total utility? DRG also relies on its party members, both to not bring guaranteed crit and for a good partner to utilize tether.

[Theihe]

I understand why you reacted this way, but this was unnecessary. I don't get why you're bragging on the official forums and bringing up logs to bolster yourself. No speedrunner would come in here and do that anyway. And the idea of 'not taking people's ideas seriously if they perform worse'? A player does not need to be amazing log-wise to know what they're talking about.

However, I mostly disagree with the points you made. For the sake of balance and removing the disparity between NIN players, the proposal is deleting NIN's unique staple and forcing it on the 2m like everyone else is just a sleeper. MNK and DRG are just alternate versions of the same job, rotation and buff type/% aside. Will it make balance easier on SE's behalf? Sure, I suppose. Doesn't mean this change is any good.

NIN's rotation is unlikely to change very much, but a lot of jobs find it very fun to play around Trick Attack or have it on their radar. You can see the difference between a good DRK and a bad DRK solely based how well they can work around Trick, same goes for SAMS, DNCs, RPRs... that have that option to do so, but otherwise it won't naturally happen. You see it as a restriction, others find it fun and rewarding.

Also are you suggesting a NIN's lower personal contributes less into buffs? A job that has one of the highest 2m bursts and is respectable every minute? The job is incredible for buffs. aDPS is a very flawed metric though if you don't strip down the comp first.

Even so, what class you decide to bring to prog does not matter when savage content is clearable on any job outside maybe week 1 if the potency tuning is just terrible. NINs can clear the content fine without the need for players to "plan and optimize". Especially given their excellent disengage ability and simple enough filler that makes mechanical execution simple, something that other melee may just not have during prog. Week 1 & 2 prog groups have brought NIN in the past and had no issues, despite the scaling. Early PF can clear just fine with a NIN. With any job in that matter. If you can't clear the week 2 dps check and you're on NIN, I think you have other issues unrelated to Trick Attack (:

That is just the nature of buff jobs and unless we want carbon copies of the same job for "balance", some jobs do better in certain situations than others. Having a unique staple means a job has both weaknesses and strengths, and if you want jobs to be viable in every situation, we might as well be all playing the same job! Because that's what direction we're heading in and honestly it's rather boring.

And shouldn't this argument apply to tether and litany as well, both buffs are just slightly behind Trick's total utility? DRG also relies on its party members, both to not bring guaranteed crit and for a good partner to utilize tether.

My response was a rebuttal of claims made about me. I can see why it would read as pretentious, and although it could probably have been written better, If someone says I do not care about X Y Z, I should be in the right to say such a claim against me is false.

No. What I said was not "I do not care about your opinion if you parse green" it was "if you don't even play the job you opinion means less on this subject to me".

You are mistaken.
I perform better at NIN than most of the people in this thread, if they even play the job AT ALL- which seems to not be the case for a lot of these complainers. Pray excuse me if I don't take some people's criticism seriously regarding a job they do not play, as they tell me how I'm supposed to feel about a job I've sunk thousands of hours into.

It is relevant that people saying "this change is bad" doesn't actively play the job. A lot of the comments are from DPS saying "oh I like putting abilities under trick", which, while being wholesome, isn't relevant to if this change is better for the NIN players themselves.

Yeah this I see, in my opinion it's not the biggest deal. It's also not inherently that some players "work around trick" is that our openers are created with Trick in mind- so as long as they dont drift they end up with stuff under TA. So it certainly is not always (sometimes, but most of the case, definitely not) people optimizing- just playing their job correctly. It's worth keeping in mind that a majority of statics do not heavily optimize. And having one job overly reliant on people doing so when other jobs are not is a reasonable thing to adress from a development standpoint.

No, where did I claim this?
If you mean in the long post I qouted on the first page, it has sections cut out and is part of a larger discussion regarding how FFLOGS can be used to indicate job health- but isnt necessarily a good indicator for the actual numbers.
I'm not really sure why aDPS is mentioned here. I feel like I'm missing context for this entire section.

Cute smiley, very passive agressive and charming, still not relevant to the claim I was originally making.
I said "The first, and only real hurdle, is beating the DPS check once, at which point it gets continously easier. If one job has a rougher time meeting that check because "they scale harder later" then they, and their team, is arbitrarily taxed."
The argument being "by having one job that is such an outlier in terms of the balancing - while all other DPS have been shoehorned into it this 2 min window- a change was expected".

I don't know if this section is an argument against me, but I agree to some extent. I can see why they're (the devs) taking the easy way out, and for me personally I am looking forward to the change. The devs have absolutely no clue what to do about TA, or a ton of other jobs in the game at the moment, and just having them put trick on 2 min (after repeatedly getting nerfed due to being way too strong) is a huge relief over the other options we could've gotten.
I'll just throw it out there that I don't find NIN's TA being this whole end all be all of it's kit as if it's the only thing making NIN into NIN. I think it lost it identity already with emnity management going out the window, debuffs not needed to be kept up, and so on. Because really TA isn't support, it's just roundabout damage. Mantra, Feint, Arcane crest and other such abilities are the real "support" jobs- NIN hasn't been a real support for years at this point.

I want to stress that it's not an "argument", it is an "assumption". I'm guessing they will just move everything (or nearly) onto a 2 min rotation with just about the same value because trying to juggle 20 raidbuffs is impossible. Especially when you try to scale it up.
So not an argument, I'm mainly guessing what their reasoning is.

[Equitable_Remedy]

I know that this is the internet and that the norm is to freak out before actually knowing what we're freaking out about, but might it make sense to actually wait for patch notes and try out the new build before definitively declaring that the sky is falling?

I'm old enough to remember when forums/Reddit/Balance declared that NIN was dead because of Raiju combo. I'm also old enough to remember when forums/Reddit/Balance declared that NIN was dead because of not Raiju combo. I'm also old enough to remember (because it's right now) when forums/Reddit/Balance declared that NIN was dead because of Mug.

Maybe take a breath, wait until we have patch notes, and then wait a little longer to actually play the game before collectively freaking out.