Trick Attack

[Manofpassion]

While I agree that people who don't like change, like me, are more likely to voice their opinion, i think its safe to say we can pretty much already judge how new mug is gonna feel and whether we like it not. Anyone who has levelled a class with a raidbuff that isn't ninja will be familiar with a 2 minute burst. If they were gonna reinvent the 2 minute buff just for nin, you would think they would give it the spotlight in the presentation to balance backlash from the gutting of trick. It is just an assumption, but I think the devs purposely didnt explain mug in great detail because they knew it was underwhelming and didn't want even more backlash.

I must say, when people say "gameplay/rotation wise it won't change too much", it doesn't make me feel much better. With trick's identity being changed drastically, i would like something to make up for it in the enjoyment and fun factor. Monk had something similar, with greased lightning being replaced by nadis, although that did take a while. It may seem contradictory, as I have come off as anti-change in these threads, but if they're gonna change trick, nin players will need a new clear thing to be their new identity. The devs in my opinion are both doing too little, by not giving nin new toys to play with, and too much since trick is being changed with little to make up for it. But who knows. Maybe mug of all things will be the next big thing in the ffxiv meta, and will have deep and interesting mechanics surrounding it. With the ffxiv devs, I believe the chances of that coming true being slim.

[Ayden]

All other jobs click 1 button to activate buff. It makes sense for them to change ninja to activate buff with 1 button - MUG. I wouldn't even be surprised if the new trick attack doesn't require suiton anymore.

[aloneatsea]

Simply removing criterion dungeons instead of balancing the few jobs that need adjustments for it is a poor idea imo. People have been begging for small scale hard content, and it'll definitely be more casual than 8 man raids, but the answer isn't to delete it if two or three jobs have trouble, just to balance for it instead.

The answer could also be non obvious. Perhaps throughout certain parts of a criterion, certain parts of the dungeon experience are more streamlined. Perhaps AOE dps is more important in certain sections than single target performance is, and ranged dps could simply be better at this than what's available to most melee dps. Perhaps black mage is stronger than Red Mage at single target, but weaker at AOE. The balance team could be crafty about how to deal with that while keeping raid balance intact.

However, specifically in the case of Trick, more frequent buffs is proportional to more party reliance, as we've determined time and time again on this thread. Bringing the party buff alignment up to speed with every other melee makes the melee role easier to balance within itself, no doubt.

I'm sorry, I think my phrasing was a bit unclear in my previous message. Removing the criterion dungeons was not a serious suggestion -- rather, I wanted to emphasize that we should not be prioritising the balance of a currently untested type of difficult content over that of the tired and true 8-man raid series.

It's true that we can't comment on what exactly criterion dungeons might be like, given that they are currently unreleased. However, they will not be released until 6.2, which makes it baffling as to why they would release such a change now. I would much sooner they leave Ninja intact, and make adjustments after gathering some data if necessary. Though I'm working with limited data myself, I don't see anything that suggests Ninja is inferior for endgame dungeon speedrunning (the closest comparison I could find) -- perhaps the damage lost from no longer having 8 party members is restored through frequent use of Hide to restore mudras.

In any case, while sure, changing NIN's party buff to be 2 minutes is technically easier to balance for, why? I could be wrong, but as far as I am aware the developers have not cited 'Ninja is hard to balance' as a reason for this change. It was simply 'to increase synergy with other jobs', which has been discussed frequently in this thread, and I and many others disagree with this sentiment. Rather, I believe it decreases synergy with other jobs that are able to burst at 1 minute intervals.

[AlunKha]

All other jobs click 1 button to activate buff. It makes sense for them to change ninja to activate buff with 1 button - MUG. I wouldn't even be surprised if the new trick attack doesn't require suiton anymore.

Dancer's Tech Step is 6 individual button clicks. Bard's full Coda Radiant Finale needs 3 songs setup beforehand, on top of Battle Voice needing another song played to activate. Let's not even go into Astro's personal buff...

[Kolsykol]

All other jobs click 1 button to activate buff. It makes sense for them to change ninja to activate buff with 1 button - MUG. I wouldn't even be surprised if the new trick attack doesn't require suiton anymore.

That's not true as someone else already mentioned.
I'd rather not get even more homogenization too.

You can have a full burst trick (sans tcj) on limit cut in p2s if you open with a first gcd trick, and the rest of your group is doing the 5 min pot window.

Yeah I am not in a static tho :P, I was mainly talking about it from the pov of PF.
Most ppl in PF don't even use pots a lot don't even use food buffs.
If everyone is doing their standard thing then it's better to delay.

[Manofpassion]

Pretty sure Ayden was being sarcastic kek

Only the most dedicated square bootlickers would advocate for such a change. Although I wouldn't be surprised if square's reasoning for brothermug really was because activating trick was too complicated.

[Equitable_Remedy]

Here's my question: is this whining a testable hypothesis?

6.1 comes out next week. Give it a few weeks for people to play with it. Say, a month after 6.1, will there have been a mass exodus of NIN mains, or will it be like SMN? The forums/Reddit/Discord were nigh unanimous in declaring SMN dead forever, but I've never seen as many SMNs as I have since 6.0 (and I believe that there was some evidence that there were, in fact, more people playing SMN, though I can't find it atm).

I'm old enough to remember forums/Reddit/Discord declaring NIN unplayable because of Raiju—in hindsight, obviously wrong. I'm sure that this time will be different, though—this time.

[LeonKeyh]

Here's my question: is this whining a testable hypothesis?

6.1 comes out next week. Give it a few weeks for people to play with it. Say, a month after 6.1, will there have been a mass exodus of NIN mains, or will it be like SMN? The forums/Reddit/Discord were nigh unanimous in declaring SMN dead forever, but I've never seen as many SMNs as I have since 6.0 (and I believe that there was some evidence that there were, in fact, more people playing SMN, though I can't find it atm).

I'm old enough to remember forums/Reddit/Discord declaring NIN unplayable because of Raiju—in hindsight, obviously wrong. I'm sure that this time will be different, though—this time.

Lucy Pyre showed a pretty drastic increase in SMN players in a video about the OTHER horrible DPS change (Kaiten); 2.4k vs almost 13.5k; I think that the numbers were parses (not sure if it was distinct player parses, or total parses or what though).

I can't see this being a large enough change to have any effect (positive or negative) to the number of people playing NIN, but who knows.

[Manofpassion]

Whining is gonna happen if the devs aren't being transparent. If you don't like people complaining due to lack of dev transparency, there is a thread in general discussion discussing dev transparency, feel free to put your points there. I would personally not like to whine. That would be alleviated if the devs can communicate like normal human beings. All you've done so far is tell people “don't worry, it'll be fine, let's wait for 6.1”. Which is fine, but you are doing square's job for them. No offense, but I will only consider such statements seriously if the devs come out and say it themselves. The devs could elaborate on changes via a two sentence tweet, 2 minute YouTube video, forum post, they have a multitude of options. The fact they can't get the unpaid intern to make an extra ppt slide is kinda funny.

No one here is saying nin is dead. It'll be fine, metawise. Even when nin had 6 gapclosers in a row it was still fine, just annoying to deal with. Nin will be fine, even without trick. Will it be as fun, which is what most of us are concerned with? The devs haven't shown us any info to suggest otherwise. I will personally still keep playing nin. I can't change to other classes since I need to keep my raid gear and not grief ny static. I have doubts I will enjoy it as much as before.

Complaning now, instead of Complaing later when 6.1 nin is out, isn't gonna change anything either way tbh. Let's not kid ourselves, I'm not even sure they read the jp forums, much less the eng ones.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

Here's my question: is this whining a testable hypothesis?

6.1 comes out next week. Give it a few weeks for people to play with it. Say, a month after 6.1, will there have been a mass exodus of NIN mains, or will it be like SMN? The forums/Reddit/Discord were nigh unanimous in declaring SMN dead forever, but I've never seen as many SMNs as I have since 6.0 (and I believe that there was some evidence that there were, in fact, more people playing SMN, though I can't find it atm).

I'm old enough to remember forums/Reddit/Discord declaring NIN unplayable because of Raiju—in hindsight, obviously wrong. I'm sure that this time will be different, though—this time.

The reason you see alot of smn has nothing to do with how good the remake was, its because it's a really easy job to play and has pretty lights. Jobs like SMN and WHM will always be popular because they are simple and easy jobs to get into. That in fact doesn't mean the decisions SE made for that job were right or fun for all. As a long time smn main the new smn is watered down and unfun in most higher content. Did I enjoy leveling to 90? Yes but after a month or so with new smn the new worn off and shiny animations got old quickly. Now when I do play it I have all the summons set to small to not block my veiw of bosses and mechs in savage. My point is if a job is widely popular that does not mean it's not mechanically flawed. Making jobs easy to play does make them get played more by people who want an easy job to play but it also isolates the long time job mains who found the complexity of a job fun. SQ should be trying to find a happy middle between these two groups but right now they seem like they rather cater to the lowest denominator.