Trick Attack

[dadong]

The only delays of TA in the current tier that comes to mind for me is in P2S and P4S Phase 2.
In P2S before the limit cut happens you'll just waste TA if you use it on CD there, you just wait until the mechanic is resolved and then re-open with TA.
And in P4S Phase 2 on Act 2, I dunno if it's the norm or if TA just comes off CD there at the end of it I honestly can't remember.
But I know that I re-open again after the last tower has gone off.

I've read some people say that they don't use TA on the adds in P3S I dunno why tho, TA is off CD again when the boss becomes targetable may as well use it.

You can have a full burst trick (sans tcj) on limit cut in p2s if you open with a first gcd trick, and the rest of your group is doing the 5 min pot window.

I'd also like to point out that people online who voice their opinions the most are more than likely the people who do not like the changes, especially before they've played it. People who like the change are more likely to determine they've liked it after having played Ninja, which is why you're probably not seeing as many posts compared to the more fervent reaction to "We're making mug a party buff and removing it from Trick!" IMO, to make a balance decision before we've got our hands on the changes is silly, especially if they feel like they've got a good reason for this. I don't feel like it'll change how ninja plays much regarding the rotation other than a shift in ogcd placement (and mug isn't a very powerful ogcd anyway aside from ninki gain) because aside from TCJ and Phantom Kamaitachi, Ninja is all about bursting every 1 min and we still have that with 6.1 Trick. But we'll see. Regardless of whether the change is good or not for gameplay feel, paired with the right potency changes I definitely see it as a buff in 4 man and solo content for Ninja right now.

I think alot of the discontent from ninja stems from the fact that the changes they made will more detrimental than beneficial. By unlinking the raidbuff from trick means that mug now has to be used off cooldown and is another thing people will have to micro manage whereas pre 6.1 mug can be drifted into trick window or be used off cooldown, and newer players who forget about pressing it means it's not the end of the world. It adds another level of needless restriction to the ninja rotation. Yes we don't know what the specifics are but with what little information we have, we can speculate on the following:

mug debuff is longer than trick buff = play as normal keeping mug off cd
trick buff longer than mug = a world of pain where you need to trick, fill with gcds, mug and then burst.

the best case scenario is you need to make sure you have another cooldown to be pressed immediately, worst case scenario you're burst window is more complicated.

[Manofpassion]

While I agree that people who don't like change, like me, are more likely to voice their opinion, i think its safe to say we can pretty much already judge how new mug is gonna feel and whether we like it not. Anyone who has levelled a class with a raidbuff that isn't ninja will be familiar with a 2 minute burst. If they were gonna reinvent the 2 minute buff just for nin, you would think they would give it the spotlight in the presentation to balance backlash from the gutting of trick. It is just an assumption, but I think the devs purposely didnt explain mug in great detail because they knew it was underwhelming and didn't want even more backlash.

I must say, when people say "gameplay/rotation wise it won't change too much", it doesn't make me feel much better. With trick's identity being changed drastically, i would like something to make up for it in the enjoyment and fun factor. Monk had something similar, with greased lightning being replaced by nadis, although that did take a while. It may seem contradictory, as I have come off as anti-change in these threads, but if they're gonna change trick, nin players will need a new clear thing to be their new identity. The devs in my opinion are both doing too little, by not giving nin new toys to play with, and too much since trick is being changed with little to make up for it. But who knows. Maybe mug of all things will be the next big thing in the ffxiv meta, and will have deep and interesting mechanics surrounding it. With the ffxiv devs, I believe the chances of that coming true being slim.

[Ayden]

All other jobs click 1 button to activate buff. It makes sense for them to change ninja to activate buff with 1 button - MUG. I wouldn't even be surprised if the new trick attack doesn't require suiton anymore.

[AlunKha]

All other jobs click 1 button to activate buff. It makes sense for them to change ninja to activate buff with 1 button - MUG. I wouldn't even be surprised if the new trick attack doesn't require suiton anymore.

Dancer's Tech Step is 6 individual button clicks. Bard's full Coda Radiant Finale needs 3 songs setup beforehand, on top of Battle Voice needing another song played to activate. Let's not even go into Astro's personal buff...

[Kolsykol]

All other jobs click 1 button to activate buff. It makes sense for them to change ninja to activate buff with 1 button - MUG. I wouldn't even be surprised if the new trick attack doesn't require suiton anymore.

That's not true as someone else already mentioned.
I'd rather not get even more homogenization too.

You can have a full burst trick (sans tcj) on limit cut in p2s if you open with a first gcd trick, and the rest of your group is doing the 5 min pot window.

Yeah I am not in a static tho :P, I was mainly talking about it from the pov of PF.
Most ppl in PF don't even use pots a lot don't even use food buffs.
If everyone is doing their standard thing then it's better to delay.

[Manofpassion]

Pretty sure Ayden was being sarcastic kek

Only the most dedicated square bootlickers would advocate for such a change. Although I wouldn't be surprised if square's reasoning for brothermug really was because activating trick was too complicated.

[Equitable_Remedy]

Here's my question: is this whining a testable hypothesis?

6.1 comes out next week. Give it a few weeks for people to play with it. Say, a month after 6.1, will there have been a mass exodus of NIN mains, or will it be like SMN? The forums/Reddit/Discord were nigh unanimous in declaring SMN dead forever, but I've never seen as many SMNs as I have since 6.0 (and I believe that there was some evidence that there were, in fact, more people playing SMN, though I can't find it atm).

I'm old enough to remember forums/Reddit/Discord declaring NIN unplayable because of Raiju—in hindsight, obviously wrong. I'm sure that this time will be different, though—this time.

[LeonKeyh]

Here's my question: is this whining a testable hypothesis?

6.1 comes out next week. Give it a few weeks for people to play with it. Say, a month after 6.1, will there have been a mass exodus of NIN mains, or will it be like SMN? The forums/Reddit/Discord were nigh unanimous in declaring SMN dead forever, but I've never seen as many SMNs as I have since 6.0 (and I believe that there was some evidence that there were, in fact, more people playing SMN, though I can't find it atm).

I'm old enough to remember forums/Reddit/Discord declaring NIN unplayable because of Raiju—in hindsight, obviously wrong. I'm sure that this time will be different, though—this time.

Lucy Pyre showed a pretty drastic increase in SMN players in a video about the OTHER horrible DPS change (Kaiten); 2.4k vs almost 13.5k; I think that the numbers were parses (not sure if it was distinct player parses, or total parses or what though).

I can't see this being a large enough change to have any effect (positive or negative) to the number of people playing NIN, but who knows.

[Manofpassion]

Whining is gonna happen if the devs aren't being transparent. If you don't like people complaining due to lack of dev transparency, there is a thread in general discussion discussing dev transparency, feel free to put your points there. I would personally not like to whine. That would be alleviated if the devs can communicate like normal human beings. All you've done so far is tell people “don't worry, it'll be fine, let's wait for 6.1”. Which is fine, but you are doing square's job for them. No offense, but I will only consider such statements seriously if the devs come out and say it themselves. The devs could elaborate on changes via a two sentence tweet, 2 minute YouTube video, forum post, they have a multitude of options. The fact they can't get the unpaid intern to make an extra ppt slide is kinda funny.

No one here is saying nin is dead. It'll be fine, metawise. Even when nin had 6 gapclosers in a row it was still fine, just annoying to deal with. Nin will be fine, even without trick. Will it be as fun, which is what most of us are concerned with? The devs haven't shown us any info to suggest otherwise. I will personally still keep playing nin. I can't change to other classes since I need to keep my raid gear and not grief ny static. I have doubts I will enjoy it as much as before.

Complaning now, instead of Complaing later when 6.1 nin is out, isn't gonna change anything either way tbh. Let's not kid ourselves, I'm not even sure they read the jp forums, much less the eng ones.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

Here's my question: is this whining a testable hypothesis?

6.1 comes out next week. Give it a few weeks for people to play with it. Say, a month after 6.1, will there have been a mass exodus of NIN mains, or will it be like SMN? The forums/Reddit/Discord were nigh unanimous in declaring SMN dead forever, but I've never seen as many SMNs as I have since 6.0 (and I believe that there was some evidence that there were, in fact, more people playing SMN, though I can't find it atm).

I'm old enough to remember forums/Reddit/Discord declaring NIN unplayable because of Raiju—in hindsight, obviously wrong. I'm sure that this time will be different, though—this time.

The reason you see alot of smn has nothing to do with how good the remake was, its because it's a really easy job to play and has pretty lights. Jobs like SMN and WHM will always be popular because they are simple and easy jobs to get into. That in fact doesn't mean the decisions SE made for that job were right or fun for all. As a long time smn main the new smn is watered down and unfun in most higher content. Did I enjoy leveling to 90? Yes but after a month or so with new smn the new worn off and shiny animations got old quickly. Now when I do play it I have all the summons set to small to not block my veiw of bosses and mechs in savage. My point is if a job is widely popular that does not mean it's not mechanically flawed. Making jobs easy to play does make them get played more by people who want an easy job to play but it also isolates the long time job mains who found the complexity of a job fun. SQ should be trying to find a happy middle between these two groups but right now they seem like they rather cater to the lowest denominator.