Hissatsu: Kaiten

[Dzian]

Snip

admiteddly It's not 90 yet but i played samurai as a main job right through the last expansion with random amounts of savage experiece. ( i don't raid but i do occassionally slot fill for friends)

but my question would be this..
when would i ever want to use midare without first using kaiten?
when would i ever want to use higabana without first using kaiten?
when would i wantto use any applicable skill without first using kaiten?

Unless it changes between 83 and 90 the answer is always NEVER! which means there no choice no strategy no impact, its just bloat..

now if it was a case where you kaiten had a cool down and you could only use it on i dunno maybe 1/3 of your iajutsu uses then bam!! now it has weight and impact because not only is there an element of choice to be made but there would also be a visible difference when using it... "whoa that midare ripped the boss to shreds compared to the last ones i did..."
but when you kaiten everything it's just another midare for the same old damage yet again... boriiingggg..

[KokaSokaLoka]

More skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. there are games where you may only have 5 or 6 skills but the way they flow and the impact they have on a fight makes for a much better gameplay experience.

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.



pretty much agree with this.. when you're pressing a button that many times it really doesnt feel fun or impactful. (problem with many ogcds in general, they're just busy buttons to keep you occupied)

when you're pressing a button to power up every iajutsu. are you really powering them up?. or just doing normal damage?

You skip the first Kaiten on the first Midare, then proceed as normal. And then without shinten you have nothing to spend it on but kaiten which is also not deep or engaging. I don't understand how "it's not deep or engaging" is an argument to make something even less deep or engaging?

And allow me to pose this argument - Less skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. Cookie Clicker is not a fun or invigorating gameplay experience because you only have one button to press, though I suppose with the arguments I see here some people seem to think it's peak video game design.

FFXIV raid design has always been a dance. Very rarely do they utilize a stun/interrupt which is about the biggest "impact" you can use a skill on a fight. Every other skill basically serves to do damage, reduce damage taken, or heal. FFXIV has a slow gcd speed and the reason for that is so you can better utilize ogcds. Take off all your ogcds and play through P1S, you'll have so much free time on your hands. I took Kaiten off my hotbar with my static's weekly run on Tuesday for P1S, the gameplay felt way more empty, and that's with still using shinten and third eye. How incredibly boring it would be to not have to weave anything. The basis of your argument is pointlessly reductionist, 95% of the buttons in the game serves to do damage, reduce damage taken, or heal - so by your argument it's all bloat.

[IdowhatIwant]

More skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. there are games where you may only have 5 or 6 skills but the way they flow and the impact they have on a fight makes for a much better gameplay experience.

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.

This alone tells me you don't know how to play the class, so its hard to take what you say serious. But, Kaiten is one of the few skills that actually tie a classes 2 gauges together. I think most players would rather keep kaiten and have the whole meditation system scrapped to reduce button bloat. Which shoha only exists, because meditate served little purpose originally, so instead of removing a useless skill the repurposed it into something that wasn't needed. Sadly kaiten being removed is making samurai like most classes, have a gauge that is used for a single skill. Which at that point why even have the gauge at all it's now just screen clutter.

[Aiscence]

More skills or buttons doesn't mean better gameplay. the issue is what those skills and buttons do and how they impact a fight. there are games where you may only have 5 or 6 skills but the way they flow and the impact they have on a fight makes for a much better gameplay experience.

Kaiten carries no weight or impact. maybe between um 52-60 where kenki is actualy a finite resource.. but 60+ you just kaiten everything without much thought thats not deep or engaging. its just bloat.



pretty much agree with this.. when you're pressing a button that many times it really doesnt feel fun or impactful. (problem with many ogcds in general, they're just busy buttons to keep you occupied)

when you're pressing a button to power up every iajutsu. are you really powering them up?. or just doing normal damage?

The thing is, you need to use it before most iaijutsu yes. But it costs kenki, so to use it, you need to keep a balance between using shinten to not overcap but not use it too much so you don't have enough anymore. The problem is that, by removing it, you will just now spam shinten when you have 25, without a single speck of thinking and if you optimize you will spend it at 90/95 just to spend it under buffs at once. That will be the only utility of that gauge, which ... seems consistent with a lot of jobs now, having a gauge that is barely used for one thing with minimum interaction. And yes, when learning samurai you will do mistakes and not have enough to do Kaiten, but mistakes are what makes you learn, sadly the dev wants to remove all the ""noob traps"" that can lead people to do any mistakes.

But if you think that "kaiten do not bring much complexity", you should read: that's how low the bar already is, that's how much the game already is far too simple. it's something that drk/mch/healers have gone through between sb and shb without many people talking about, it's sad that it took them to touch samurai for people to begin to riot. Sadly, with yoship saying nice takes like: aha I remember when people asked us to make the game more difficult in HW, it's not something we want to do anymore or if people want engaging content, they can do ultimate or even: ou healer "that can kinda heal extreme" became too good, so we had to replace it. That means 99% of the content is made to just be a visual novel while the gameplay is relayed to the background, and that includes the jobs.

[Ransu]

They mean action bloat, as in, button presses, not button bloat(which is its own issue)


As it is, kaiten is the 2nd most used action (generally tied with shinten) after hakaze.


To me, when it's used that much, it doesn't have much weight behind it. It doesn't "feel good" to me to use it, unlike something like stardiver, which has prep involved and isn't used constantly.

It's a button that only exists to make 2 other buttons do more damage. If it had a cooldown on it to make you use it strategically, sure, but it's not

Stardiver hits like a wet noodle. Nothing about that move feels good when it takes 9 years to get to it when doing the optimized rotation. That said, who cares if kaiten is used a lot? In terms of "action bloat" nothing changes because we're all just going to replace it with shinten. The button APM stays exactly the same.

[LeonKeyh]

Stardiver hits like a wet noodle. Nothing about that move feels good when it takes 9 years to get to it when doing the optimized rotation. That said, who cares if kaiten is used a lot? In terms of "action bloat" nothing changes because we're all just going to replace it with shinten. The button APM stays exactly the same.

Agreed with Stardiver; Agreed with who cares if it is used alot; I'm going to be pedantic (mainly as sarcasm to show how dumb the change is), but Shinten costs 5 more Kenki so it'll only be used 4/5ths of the number of Kaitens used. (Let's be real though, they're CLEARLY also going to lower the amount of Kenki that we generate to make it so that we use Shinten the same amount that we do now).

[Imoye]

It's a button that only exists to make 2 other buttons do more damage. If it had a cooldown on it to make you use it strategically, sure, but it's not

You can use the same logic for pretty much any and every ability in this game. Remove X because all it does is X. Not a good arguement in any way.

[AnnRam]

"Remove to improve" strikes again.

Can't wait when they finally remove tank stances too because in a few years even Genshin Impact gonna have more skills/keys to use than FFXIV

[AziraSyuren]

Man.

They really fucked up job gauges bad by turning almost every skill that uses one into being the only skill that uses one. Job gauge skills are now pretty much normal cooldowns with a different coat of paint that are sometimes slightly easier to unload during burst windows.

[CyberSnake]

Just add me to the list of people mad about that change. It's not too late to revert it. And instead remove Shoha II and Guren and just make them upgrades to single target equivalents.