Hissatsu: Kaiten

[Ransu]

4. Resource management. We went from having 3 kenki spenders down to 2, which Senei/Guren is a on 2 minute CD that lines up with Ikishoten so really you had 2 kenki spenders down to 1 now. Having a gauge with only one way to spend the resource is boring. Other classes have that issue. I'm sure some people like it and I'm fine with that, let them have some classes that have that option. But having to balance kenki usage to ensure I didn't dip below Kaiten's cost was part of the fun in resource management. It wasn't just a button for the sake of pressing a button like BLMs Enochian was. Because unlike Enochian where you're going to press it no matter what, floating kenki high so you have enough kenki to do what you need while having the risk of overcapping was a conscious choice with autonomous decision making. On top of that, since Senei only takes 25 kenki it was helpful to be able to weave kaiten and shinten together to eat 45 kenki before ikishoten came up so I could maximize kenki for raid buffs.

5. SAM still puts out good damage even if you don't play it optimally. Forget to Kaiten before midare? Not the end of the world. Never touch third eye? Not a gigantic loss. Overcap your kenki on accident? No big deal. You could play the class as casually as you wanted and still do decent damage. But I like high skill ceilings. You can make the skill floor as low as you want, but don't lower the skill ceiling. Optimizing is a big part of the fun for me, simple classes just leave me kind of bored. Resolving button bloat would do far more in helping more casual players pick up the class.

6. Just to add to this since it's related to kaiten being taken away: I don't like autocrits. I don't like them for WAR and I don't like it for SAM. On top of it being anti-synergetic with crit buffs it's just not a fun philosophy. When every hit is a crit, no hit is a crit. What's the fun of rolling a Nat 20 when there are no other numbers on the dice? If damage variance was the issue the easy answer was to reduce the potency of Ogi Namikiri/Midare and move it into the rest of the kit. If SE is planning on guaranteeing crits more and more then at the very least crit buffs need to move from improving crit chance to improving crit damage.

All in all, I felt like SAM was in an incredibly solid spot at this point and could've gone without ANY changes compared to some of the other classes. I don't really care if this class is the top dps class or the ideal dance partner, I stuck with SAM when RPR came out and MNK was the king of melee damage. I like the class, Kaiten is a big part of the class. So unless there's more changes coming that are going to resolve the issues I've described above I can't imagine that these changes will be fun ones.

Honestly at this point it wouldn't surprise me if in the future kenki gets removed and shinten because some kind of CD with multiple stacks.

[Karis_rf]

i agree that samurai has a LOT of buttons, but kaiten is not the one causing the problem. It's something of a core to the rotation, and *for me* one of the things that makes this class fun to play.
If they really want to reduce action bloat they could make shoha and shoha ll one single button AOE with fall off damage. The same could be applied to Hissatsu: Guren and Hissatsu: Senei.
Ikishoten could change to Ogi: Namikiri instead of ogi having it's own button

[fleyr]

To the person whom I once saw in DF who mentioned that new Summoner is a rewarding and complex job.
The loss of the prefrontal cortex is a serious issue, and should not be something to aim for with the other jobs.

[LackOfCreativity]

Yes. I've been worrying about the state of job design in this game for a while now. It was glaringly obvious during 5.x that a lot of shit that made some dps jobs as well as tank jobs interesting just isn't important to the job designers.

This is one of my favorite games of all time, but I'm extremely worried about the direction of it. The content in this expansion has been very fun, but when you make jobs more bland and less unique in the name of accessibility or balance, you lose the fun those jobs had. This game has a button bloat issue, I understand this. But removing Kaiten is not the way you could very easily solve this issue on SAM. Just combine guren/senai as well as shoha/shoha 2. It's literally that easy, and it frees up one more slot than removing kaiten and turning the kenki gauge into the shinten/senai gauge. That's without even finding creative ways to solve this problem the game has, I just pulled that straight out of my ass, much like the devs did with removing kaiten and giving SAM some incompatibility with crit raidbuffs. Scholars, Dancers, Bards and Dragoons rejoice.

And this isn't even getting into the horrible state of drk and whm. Absolutely dreadful to play either right now. They've been shit to play for a long time, but it's been magnified so much in this expansion that it's too much to ignore. The sheer amount of screaming into the void the Drk playerbase has done in the time I've been a part of it is just fucking depressing when you contrast it with what little consolation we've been given. "Yay, maybe Living Dead will be useable! Thanks Yoshi-P!" The fact that we even got that much surprised me, honestly. Sure, we're still being completely ignored in the way of TBN still being tied to our DPS while being shittier than tools other tanks got this expansion, and blood weapon STILL does not have stacks like they decided to give delirium and they refuse to acknowledge that it's even a problem, but we got LD to maybe not be a "gee I wonder if I'll even survive after my invulnerability skill has ran its course" situation, so surely none of that other stuff matters.

Malding aside, I really really really love this game. I do not want it to end up like WoW but in a different way. But with recent events, SE can only be described as out of touch and/or tonedeaf. Two criticisms very often levied at Blizzard.

[Clkid611]

Kaiten gave sam a unique feeling to the class. it also allowed for some decision making on your rotation. Please dont remove that. i dont agree with the reasoning because you couldve just upgraded shoha and shoha 2 to be an aoe with damage fall off like other moves youve done this expansion. spirits within is a perfect example. you couldve also mixed ikishoten into one set of buttons following a pattern like the confitor combo. Kaiten doesnt seem to be the problem in my opinion. Please reconsider other ways. end all i feel youre changing the feel of samurai with the removal of kaiten

[AziraSyuren]

Removing Kaiten is kinda lame. Not because it makes the job less complex, but because it felt good to use. There were other ways they could’ve addressed button bloat.

[Jeeqbit]

Hissatsu: Kaiten is also known as Dark Arts. That is probably why.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Hissatsu: Kaiten is also known as Dark Arts. That is probably why.

Where is it known as that? In translations? In other media?

My understanding is Hissatsu is "Deathblow" and Kaiten is "Turning of the Heavens"

Kaiten is awesome flavor for a job that is themed around patience/focus through the seasons.

[Jeeqbit]

Where is it known as that? In translations? In other media?

My understanding is Hissatsu is "Deathblow" and Kaiten is "Turning of the Heavens"

Dark Knight used to have an ability called "Dark Arts". You would press it to enhance your other actions and abilities. There (Dark Arts)was a (Dark Arts)big meme (Dark Arts)about (Dark Arts)how they would Dark Arts everything.

It was removed in Shadowbringers but Kaiten is used the same way, so you can see the other reason that might have contributed to the decision.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Dark Knight used to have an ability called "Dark Arts". You would press it to enhance your other actions and abilities. There (Dark Arts)was a (Dark Arts)big meme (Dark Arts)about (Dark Arts)how they would Dark Arts everything.

It was removed in Shadowbringers but Kaiten is used the same way, so you can see the other reason that might have contributed to the decision.

Hm, I wonder if this is hinting at some sort of spellblade job in the future. Because DRK *was* the "Rune Fencer" until SAM and RDM were released. And I still think SAM is basically just an eastern take on a Spellblade job.

For the record, I am against a Spellblade job for several reasons, and this--the dilution of existing job designs--is one of them.