New hrothgar hairstyles are really bad.

[reivaxe]

Id hate to be the bearer of bad news, but he didn't actually discuss the "specifications" minus "Their heads are unique". Outside of their muzzles, *WHY* are their heads unique?

Hrothgar heads have different sized-n-shaped ears and foreheads to have different types of beasty faces. All other races have unified heads (Au Ra horns come out at the same skinny point and become wide away from the head). If I had to put on my art pants and guess why they did this, its prob cause the CC for FF14 is limited, and it's hard to tell the difference in nonhumen faces without there being huge differences in the overall face structure when making animals. There's also the fact that they gave Hrothgar that stupid hunch, that results in their necks coming out at a very horizontal angle out of the back of their heads. I noticed this when someone posted the 2B hair from the side, it's strange looking and elongated because they're trying to make it work with the position of the neck when it's supposed to be a cute bob at the back. Their heads aren't "long" compared to other races, they just have to account for the neck with that hunch.

So yeah, it's clear Hrothgar were never designed to share hair with each other's heads, let alone other races. If SE is in here, I hope they take this to heart for the females and give them Miqote/ Mithra ear placement. Save us the headache, no one's gonna cry if the ears don't come out the top of the forehead.

they'd rather wait a while and then use the "it's hard as an excuse" making hair is annoying, but when you're actively making variations for hats and Miqo'te ears, but ignoring Viera and hrothgar, please forgive me for being a bit irate.

Miqote are a core race in this game, they and the gear systems they use were designed before the 2.0 team were on. So yeah, they had systems to use as a base for the 1000s of things to come after at the start. If they wanted to, they could have used that system ... had they just made Viera have "long Miqote ears" and be some new bunny race instead.

They would have to make a new system to account for Viera ears (I don't even count Hrothgar ears, they're so small I wouldn't bother trying to make ear socks or holes for em personally). Personally don't think they shoulda did either race until they were ready to address this, or they should have just made both within the confines of what's possible in game currently.

[Punslinger]

It also has something to do with the famous spaghetti coding. Mods are client sided, so modders don't actually have to deal with the coding of the actual server.

Anybody who knows anything at all about programming will know that client-side art assets have nothing to do with server code.

Let's step through this logically:

1. Client-side mods are able to fix the Hrothgar hair
2. Therefore, back-end server changes are not necessary to fix the Hrothgar hair.

"But other players can't see it!"

Other players can't see it, because the fixes are done to your local copy of the art assets. The game doesn't dynamically stream models and textures from the server, because art assets are invariant, and there is no reason to waste network bandwidth transmitting data that never changes. When you see a Hrothgar in-game, the server says, "Hey, load a Hrothgar with X height, Y face, and Z hair," and the game client loads that stuff from its local copy of the art assets.

Square could easily fix the models and roll them out in a new version of the client. No actual coding would be required. No "sPaGhEtTi CoDe" boogeymen would show up to ruin everything.

Source: I'm a programmer at my day job, with fourteen years' experience writing server code.

[Akimori]

Hrothgar heads have different sized-n-shaped ears and foreheads to have different types of beasty faces. All other races have unified heads (Au Ra horns come out at the same skinny point and become wide away from the head). If I had to put on my art pants and guess why they did this, its prob cause the CC for FF14 is limited, and it's hard to tell the difference in nonhumen faces without there being huge differences in the overall face structure when making animals. There's also the fact that they gave Hrothgar that stupid hunch, that results in their necks coming out at a very horizontal angle out of the back of their heads. I noticed this when someone posted the 2B hair from the side, it's strange looking and elongated because they're trying to make it work with the position of the neck when it's supposed to be a cute bob at the back. Their heads aren't "long" compared to other races, they just have to account for the neck with that hunch.

Its that damn hunch thats getting them into trouble. I know someone posted that the forehead specifically on face 4 was changed to fit these "new" hairs. Literally no one asked for the hunch and Im sure a lot of people (not everyone) want to do away with it to begin with or at the very least give them the ability to toggle between being hunched over and standing straight up (even one of their idle poses has them kinda standing straight up, but they're also kind of leaning. I know I personally want to get rid of it because it actually hurts my neck watching my Hroth lean forward like that. One *should* be able to tell a cat man from a miqo'te from just their face alone. So, NGL, Im still failing to see the argument of the "unique" head when the only real unique thing about them is

1. The hunch (that no one asked for)
2. The face

Anybody who knows anything at all about programming will know that client-side art assets have nothing to do with server code.

I could argue semantics and say "No, a beginning programmer wouldn't know anything about your bolded section." because a beginning programmer would be learning the basics, not server sided coding. Hell, Im still in school on my second semester and they haven't even touched on server sided code yet~

[Chikatsu]

Anybody who knows anything at all about programming will know that client-side art assets have nothing to do with server code.

Let's step through this logically:

1. Client-side mods are able to fix the Hrothgar hair
2. Therefore, back-end server changes are not necessary to fix the Hrothgar hair.

"But other players can't see it!"

Other players can't see it, because the fixes are done to your local copy of the art assets. The game doesn't dynamically stream models and textures from the server, because art assets are invariant, and there is no reason to waste network bandwidth transmitting data that never changes. When you see a Hrothgar in-game, the server says, "Hey, load a Hrothgar with X height, Y face, and Z hair," and the game client loads that stuff from its local copy of the art assets.

Square could easily fix the models and roll them out in a new version of the client. No actual coding would be required. No "sPaGhEtTi CoDe" boogeymen would show up to ruin everything.

Source: I'm a programmer at my day job, with fourteen years' experience writing server code.

but you see, that would require effort

[Rathmir]

Its that damn hunch thats getting them into trouble. I know someone posted that the forehead specifically on face 4 was changed to fit these "new" hairs.
[snip]

That's one thing that pisses me off down to the core!
First they do absolutely nothing all those months and years, then see the dead line in 5 days, and start to panick around, mutilate my character's head, and don't even give the ability to hide that crippling with other face's and lore matching hairstyle.
Instead they throw out radiation mutation hairs and the second from the face I cannot identify the character with.

I know how my character looks with hair 3&4, and it's kinda awesome and suits him totally. And would hide the new shape. Thanks for nothing, Squex!

[Midareyukki]

Its that damn hunch thats getting them into trouble. I know someone posted that the forehead specifically on face 4 was changed to fit these "new" hairs. Literally no one asked for the hunch and Im sure a lot of people (not everyone) want to do away with it to begin with or at the very least give them the ability to toggle between being hunched over and standing straight up (even one of their idle poses has them kinda standing straight up, but they're also kind of leaning. I know I personally want to get rid of it because it actually hurts my neck watching my Hroth lean forward like that. One *should* be able to tell a cat man from a miqo'te from just their face alone. So, NGL, Im still failing to see the argument of the "unique" head when the only real unique thing about them is

Even assuming the hunch made Hrothgar unique, it looks poorly made to begin with. When they came out, all of my FC said it looked I was defecating or in a dire need to find a restroom. This is not the sort of reaction you want from people seeing your animations. Even the Charr from GW2 who do lean over have a reason for it since they're more animalistic than our Roegadyn-Copypasta Model, AND they even go on all fours to move around.

Ronso never had to deal with a hunch, and they on their own already looked quite different. You can always tell a Hrothgar from a Miqo'te without the hunch, and in fact I never even rely on it to tell if I'm zoomed out that far or if they're on full plate armour.

Complex Method:
1 - Does it have a tail? Can only be Hrothgar, Au Ra or Miqo'te.
2 - Is it taller than everyone else? Hrothgar or Au Ra.
2 - Is it bulky and not twinky? Hrothgar.
Done.

Or the simplified method:
1 - Is the tail thick or looks like a paint brush? Hrothgar.

That simple.

but you see, that would require effort

The only code-related things the engine does are telling you what to get from a library of assets, how to assemble them and how to load them. The last of which it will do natively, you rarely ever touch on it. And all this is told to your console because a server doesn't give two flying Colibris about what you are, only what you do. It only cares about what you are to tell people "This person looks like this", and their console will deal with it. All it does is give you the schematics, your console is the one that takes all the Lego pieces and assembles them. Mods and actual official files are 100% not the servers' job.

The thing to perform what Punslinger says is literally already in the code xD Any effort past that is really on the 3D modelling team. It just seems they have a phobia of modelling stuff for non-humans, despite the fact that the bulk of their job's already been done. The head models are done, all they need to do is either add hair and fit gear. It'd be no different than adding a humanoid race... which oh look at that, Viera exist.

[Chikatsu]

The thing to perform what Punslinger says is literally already in the code xD Any effort past that is really on the 3D modelling team.

as I am fully aware, hence why I said it would require effort - which the "just port the same hair we gave Viera" has shown us that they are unwilling to do. they could stick one or two folks responsible for equipment assets and port all the headgear in game to Hrothgar in time for 6.2. they won't, but they COULD, since an amateur managed to do just that in a matter of ~6 months time. instead they pinky swear is super duper difficult and woe, hear their lament. they could push a fix in 6.12 for the disappearing ears from the new wigs, as modders have shown that it is just turning a flag from Off to On. they won't do that either because "ZOMG the clipping!!!", but, again, they could. even when we have been given the helms that fully replace the head model, they couldn't even be arsed to scale it up a couple of percent, instead opting to compress our skulls comedically small compared to the rest of our frame because, again, effort.

[Rokke]

NGL, Im still failing to see the argument of the "unique" head

What Reivaxe is saying is that the 4 heads' proportions are not standardized. The most noticeable discrepancy are the ears, Hroth ears' placement/ear size + shape vary between the 4 heads. If you plopped the heads into a 3D program and imposed them on top of each other the point where they meet the head would not line up. Thats what "uniqueness" they are talking about.

I don't have maya on this computer anymore so apologies for less technical examples

Imagine blue lines are standardized features and red are unique features

Every other race has a fixed place where its [non human feature] meets the head, be it horns or animal ears. The heads are uniform, the faces are more like face plates on nendos. If I were modeling a hairstyle for male Miqo'te, I would only need 1 male Miqote model because options 1, 2, 3 and 4 are uniform. It wouldn't matter if a user played the old man face or the Graha face, their heads + ears are standardized so hair will line up the same on their head regardless.

In comparison, Hrothgar are more unique than they are standardized. Some ears have wider bases, some sit higher on their head, etc. Its more difficult to make a one size fits all hairstyle across their 4 faces, which is the how/why we got earless Hroth hair: they went for a simple one size fits all solution...which as we've all seen, doesn't really look good.

[Midareyukki]

as I am fully aware, hence why I said it would require effort - which the "just port the same hair we gave Viera" has shown us that they are unwilling to do. they could stick one or two folks responsible for equipment assets and port all the headgear in game to Hrothgar in time for 6.2. they won't, but they COULD, since an amateur managed to do just that in a matter of ~6 months time. instead they pinky swear is super duper difficult and woe, hear their lament. they could push a fix in 6.12 for the disappearing ears from the new wigs, as modders have shown that it is just turning a flag from Off to On. they won't do that either because "ZOMG the clipping!!!", but, again, they could. even when we have been given the helms that fully replace the head model, they couldn't even be arsed to scale it up a couple of percent, instead opting to compress our skulls comedically small compared to the rest of our frame because, again, effort.

What do you mean 6 months? Someone's already done that in about 2 weeks. It fixes Hrothgar hats AND their hairstyles. And they're doing it in their free time while preparing for a college degree. Sure, most of it is work they've done before, but... still, 2 weeks. And Square's had 3 years.

Don't worry though. Was just really laying it out in case people came in to white knight over spaghetti code and really drive it in there how much of a matter of effort this whole topic is.

The more I think of this topic, the less I care about the dev team. Yes, thank you for an interesting 6.1 patch and years of a good game, but holy hell this topic is ruining it. And the answers weren't only vague or unconvincing, they were just downright not true.

Like, what else more do they want us to do? Give feedback? We have 2 threads of this. Be more polite? We were just upset to be poorly treated and be constantly told crap. Crap that no longer sticks. So people now are just exhausted. What else, be patient? We've had 3 years and suddenly they come up to us and say "Yeah we're planning on redoing the ARR races, here, enjoy the least effort put into this game ever", come on...

And of course people will say we whine, that we are being very mean to the devs and not giving them due credit. Yet we can give credit where credit is due, but that won't excuse us from saying where they're dropping the ball. And for some reason this one singular topic that could just be solved by going to the 3D department and make them work on it, is causing such a headache for them! Why? Why is this topic so contentious? Why do they not want to put in effort into this? Because they sure as hell put effort into useless stuff.

We can't give any more, Square Enix. You've sent your Community Representatives, but they just told us to please listen to an answer that ammounted to "whatever, eyeroll". We're simply demanding more transparency and fairness. It really is your turn to do stuff.

[Chikatsu]

What do you mean 6 months? Someone's already done that in about 2 weeks. It fixes Hrothgar hats AND their hairstyles. And they're doing it in their free time while preparing for a college degree. Sure, most of it is work they've done before, but... still, 2 weeks. And Square's had 3 years.

Don't worry though. Was just really laying it out in case people came in to white knight over spaghetti code and really drive it in there how much of a matter of effort this whole topic is.

The more I think of this topic, the less I care about the dev team. Yes, thank you for an interesting 6.1 patch and years of a good game, but holy hell this topic is ruining it. And the answers weren't only vague or unconvincing, they were just downright not true.

Like, what else more do they want us to do? Give feedback? We have 2 threads of this. Be more polite? We were just upset to be poorly treated and be constantly told crap. Crap that no longer sticks. So people now are just exhausted. What else, be patient? We've had 3 years and suddenly they come up to us and say "Yeah we're planning on redoing the ARR races, here, enjoy the least effort put into this game ever", come on...

And of course people will say we whine, that we are being very mean to the devs and not giving them due credit. Yet we can give credit where credit is due, but that won't excuse us from saying where they're dropping the ball. And for some reason this one singular topic that could just be solved by going to the 3D department and make them work on it, is causing such a headache for them! Why? Why is this topic so contentious? Why do they not want to put in effort into this? Because they sure as hell put effort into useless stuff.

We can't give any more, Square Enix. You've sent your Community Representatives, but they just told us to please listen to an answer that ammounted to "whatever, eyeroll". We're simply demanding more transparency and fairness. It really is your turn to do stuff.

I was under the impression that the original mod that gave us ALL the headgear options in addition to scaling up the models that replace the head entirely took 6 months time to complete, start to finish. it's existed for a while now, but it didn't just appear in the first two weeks of Shadowbringers?