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Thread: 6.1 Samurai

  1. #81
    Player
    Stasya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2021
    Posts
    405
    Character
    Stasya Astolfofangirl
    World
    Phoenix
    Main Class
    Botanist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazimere View Post
    Providing weak arguments isn’t going to change the devs mind either. They want to snip an ability or two, and Kaiten is a prime candidate for snipping.
    Have you ever played SAM past reading official ff14 SAM job guide? I guess no? Because at this point i dont know what to say about "i know everything, remove kaiten!!!!!!!!" .... In a similar way i can propose Reaper changes: positionals removed - gibbet and gallows merged into 1 ability, also i dont like Shadow of death since there is no "thought process" in using that ability just gcd spending - remove it aswell and adjust potencies, also i dont like Blood Stalk tied to soul gauge, there is no "thought process" of getting 50 gauge and using this ability .....

    Devs just as usual did not tested things like it was at Endwalker start, all players are just beta testers so it led to your reaper being broken because many others were behind. Now they just destroy SAM for no reason or maybe they want more reaper players?

    Lets remove kaiten then whats the point of having an entire gauge system called "kenki" ? I will just repeat the same logic that you post here in forums: "there is no thought process" of keeping 25 kenki for Senei, we can remove kenki cost from this ability, no one will notice. Even without that we can clearly see that there is no point of having kenki gauge and Shinten tied to it. If we remove kenki and just put Shinten on some odd cd with charges tied to sks aswell it will be SAME.

    Both of SAM changes are terrible, multiple ways to free 1 button slot (who asked for this even?) but lets remove ability that makes SAM gauge system existence very questionable, 100% crit on 2 min abilities literally CONTRADICTS with the way how classes with crit buffs work making SAM terrible choice to be with in party....
    (14)
    Last edited by Stasya; 04-02-2022 at 06:10 PM.

  2. #82
    Player
    Silhart's Avatar
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    Apr 2022
    Location
    Wolves' Den Pier
    Posts
    46
    Character
    Calv Silhart
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Dragoon Lv 90
    Created a forum account to lend my support to OP. Please don't take away Kaiten. The suggestions made by people in this thread are good ways to address button bloat without negatively impacting the feel of the class. I wish the devs would consider consolidating the buttons mentioned in OP before taking away a button that many people obviously enjoy.

    And to the people saying it wasn't adding anything to SAM's gameplay & that it had no skill expression... you realize the same could be said about nearly everything in this game? Why do we have weaponskill combos if the buttons are pressed in the exact same way every time? Why have damaging oGCDs when you have no other option but to use them off CD? DoTs, gauges - it's all just pointless busywork with zero skill expression, so we'd lose nothing by doing away with them, right? Wrong. Skill expression or not, the tactile feel of having different buttons to press is important for class enjoyment, and messing with that is going to have direct consequences on people's fun. That simple fact can't be ignored, because at the end of the day, what is the #1 thing people look for when choosing what class they want to play?

    Hint: it's a 3 letter word beginning with F.
    (17)
    Last edited by Silhart; 04-02-2022 at 07:25 PM.

  3. #83
    Player
    Faulko's Avatar
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    Jun 2017
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    17
    Character
    Faulko Ilili
    World
    Zalera
    Main Class
    Rogue Lv 70
    I’m not touching my SAM once this change goes through. This has to be the absolute dumbest decision they’ve made for samurai. I can’t imagine this change remains permanent, hopefully enough Samurai will voice their opinions and it’s reverted. However this whole situation leaves me ever more worried that the devs have literally zero clue how to manage the classes without turning them all into the exact same homogenized rotation as everyone else.
    (6)

  4. #84
    Player
    Rilifane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    1,580
    Character
    Esther Harper
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 90
    Please keep Kaiten.
    If they really want to reduce button bloat, I'm in favour of merging some skills that are either mutually exclusive because they can only be cast one after another or because one is for single target and one is for aoe.
    Shoha I & Shoha II, Guren & Senei, Iaijutsu & Tsubame, Ikishoten & Ogi Namikiri would all make sense to merge with Iaijutsu and Tsubame not even losing us any fancy animations some people may like.
    Kaiten added a small amount of Kenki management. It wasn't huge but it was there and if you have an AST in your group it added even more nuance because dumping as many Shinten as possible in a card buff without losing Kaiten for finisher moves requires a bit of attention. It flowed well with the rotation and I found it a fun ability (much more than pure Shinten spam). Animation and sound is a bonus point for me.
    But most of all I don't look forward to Shinten spam as the only spender.
    Bunshin doesn't require a huge thought process either but it is something to keep track of over just using Bhava when you're about to cap.
    (7)

  5. #85
    Player
    ForteNightshade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
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    Limsa Lominsa
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    3,614
    Character
    Kurenai Tenshi
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Faulko View Post
    I’m not touching my SAM once this change goes through. This has to be the absolute dumbest decision they’ve made for samurai. I can’t imagine this change remains permanent, hopefully enough Samurai will voice their opinions and it’s reverted. However this whole situation leaves me ever more worried that the devs have literally zero clue how to manage the classes without turning them all into the exact same homogenized rotation as everyone else.
    Unfortunately, this feels inline with their pursuit for the most basic of job design, where literally anyone can pick up the job and play it without the slightest bit of thought. If this change does stick, I suspect Life Surge isn't long for this world despite it getting two charges just this expansion. Hell, I'm beginning to wonder if buffs like Battle Litany, Battle Voice and Chain survive much longer since their solution to complaints about synergy seem to be "delete it!!!"
    (5)
    "Stand in the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters."
    "The silence is your answer."


  6. #86
    Player
    Chopstix's Avatar
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    Sep 2021
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    162
    Character
    Chopstix Maulader
    World
    Malboro
    Main Class
    Warrior Lv 90
    +1

    DO NOT REMOVE KAITEN. It is an awesome skill. As OP pointed out there r many, many, many much better candidates to be targeted for removal as button bloat. Also, y does iaijutsu not turn into kaeshi?
    (5)

  7. #87
    Player
    Gemina's Avatar
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    Mar 2016
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    Dravania
    Posts
    5,778
    Character
    Gemina Lunarian
    World
    Siren
    Main Class
    Scholar Lv 100
    Chiming in late, but I knew that the removal of Seigan was the first sign of the decline with SAM. A very subtle ember in the wind to set the job ablaze. It was fun while it lasted, but when a job plays so well to the point that it doesn't need much, the next direction the devs tend to take a job in this position is to eff it up entirely. 6.1 SAM is only going further in this direction.

    Ah well. This is exactly why I play multiple jobs.
    (1)

  8. #88
    Player
    ReiganCross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2021
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    240
    Character
    V'ox Bolt
    World
    Behemoth
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 90
    I love all these people saying "Kaiten is just an animation."

    Kaiten is the whole POINT of managing Kenki instead of just dumping it all on Shinten. You needed to balance the bar enough so it wouldn't over-cap when you Hagakure Dump on your filler or ready your Yukikaze boosts, but you needed to keep some on reserve because you needed to Kaiten your Iaijutsus. Hell, in AoE Kyuten barely ever came up because the area combo barely generated enough Kenki for it to be left for Kyuten because you needed to Kaiten your Tekka Gokens (And I personally think THAT is the reason they're axing Kaiten, because they can't make it work on AoE even giving us more Kenki and this expansion is focused on AoE for some reason.)

    Without Kaiten there is only ever the decision to Shinten as soon as you get 25. Because you COULD save your Kenki on buff windows, but during buff windows you're kind of trying to throw all your Namikiri and Kaeshi stuff with at least one Hinganbana in there, so a lot of casting which means little weave windows to even throw 100+ worth of Kenki on. Not to mention you start your big buff window getting 50 Kenki, so you don't want to enter the buff window with more than 50, which means you'll be dumping your Kenki violently on Shinten anyways.

    Kaiten is the only reason why you still balance your Kenki anymore now that your Seigan is gone (Which was a terrible thing to do, by the way, Seigan was awesome please bring it back.) It's not just "A superfluous skill with a cool twirl animation", it's a constant mechanic you have to play around in this class!
    (10)

  9. #89
    Player
    Xenon_S's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
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    94
    Character
    Xenon Shinkiro
    World
    Gilgamesh
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 90
    Kaiten is not a button bloat issue in the keybinding sense

    In the slides, the JP text uses the word "操作量”, which is more equivalent to action bloat, in the sense that it is an extra action to press before iaijutsus.

    However, in this vein, Kaiten isn't an action bloat issue either, and removing kaiten does NOT alleviate this issue (which doesn't really exists in the first place imo)

    In removing Kaiten, the kenki will just be spent on Shinten instead, which still takes up an oGCD slot, and is objectively less interesting.
    Granted, I'm not saying pressing Kaiten is some 200 IQ move, but it is still an active decision to be made, whether to spam Shinten or conserve Kenki for Kaiten.
    Which is funny because, going from 4.0 to 5.0, they added Tsubame Gaeshi and the gutted Hagakure to discourage Shinten spam, and now we are going back to it.

    The only time Kaiten action bloat is a minor issue is when, during a 2min burst window, you are setting up Midare Setsugekka -> Kaeshi Setsugekka -> Sen GCD -> Higanbana -> Ogi Namikiri with 1 stack of meditation. In which after Higanbana you will reach 3 stack meditation, forcing a Shoha cast, and also having to Kaiten the Ogi Namikiri. Higanbana being a cast means you cannot double weave (without clipping) during that slot thus you have to introduce another GCD to weave the Kaiten, or modify the sequence of the skills.

    This can be alleviated in so many ways that does not require the removal of Kaiten.
    For example, letting mediation go up to 5 stacks (with Shoha being usable at 3) as to have some buffer zone. This even adds some more optimization depth as you can choose where to place your Shoha.
    Or simply make it so that Ogi Namikiri does not require Kaiten, as we got the "sword twirling powerup" with Ikishoten already.

    IMO, the decision to remove Kaiten is a bad solution to an irrelevant problem, and this isn't even an agrument regarding the aesthetics and class fantasy of the skill.
    For all the transparency and communication the devs do, job balancing isn't part of them.
    (7)

  10. #90
    Player
    AnimusVox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2022
    Posts
    3
    Character
    Oceane Aveline
    World
    Lich
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 90
    I also made this forum account solely to support the reversal of these changes. Please do not remove Kaiten!

    My fellow Samurai mains already made very good points in this thread, so I'll keep this brief.

    Kaiten is too iconic to delete. There should be more ways to spend Kenki, not less. The changes to the Gekko/Kasha positionals and the Kenki cost reduction of Guren/Senei were tolerable but removing Kaiten makes Kenki management near non-existent. As far as action bloat goes, yes, SAM is a busy job during burst windows. But it's also very fun to execute correctly.

    Wildly fluctuating dps due to crits is nothing new. What should have been looked at is the potency distribution across SAM's skills or even the crit stat itself. A lot of jobs have hard hitting abilities where crits can make a huge difference. Should we expect auto-crits for Double Down, Akh Morn, Hyosho Ranryu or Communio as well? Locking SAM out of contributing to raid buffs will make it feel worse.
    (18)

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