A certain someone isn't coming back [Spoilers]

[Cleretic]

My comment about Zenos being an edgy prettyboy was more just about his physical appearence (read: hair) that gave that stereotype than anything else as far as I was concerned (Emet after all had short hair, well, as his young Solus form - it was a little longer but still just above the shoulders shortish in his original form), I admit though, I guess that was more just because of my own preferences, as I'm not really into long-haired men, I tend to prefer mine more shorter haired and more intelligent (like Cid ), and unfortunately Zenos never really struck me as being intelligent (no, I'm not going to make blonde jokes here), he was just a bored, spoiled princeling whose entire existence was pure hedonism. Which probably did not help his descent into sociopathy.

There's an interesting point to be observed that while we're told that Zenos is smart, the public image of him is essentially 'dumb as bricks', because he's never put in a position where that intelligence is used. Which come to think of it is sort of a general blind spot of the game's villain roster; most of them just don't get to seem smart through actual feats. The only ones that really get to flaunt intelligence in the MSQ have been Thordan and Fandaniel, and I don't think we'd put 'smart guy' anywhere near the top of Fandaniel's character traits.

Zenos was never really a character designed for people to like, though, they were definitely angling for 'love to hate' with him--which I personally think they got to in Endwalker, but he was a real slog until then. All the villains have an angle of 'love to hate', but there's a pronounced element with most where you're at least meant to be able to genuinely like them as a person (consider 'like Emet as a smug git you want to punch in the face' versus 'like Emet as a tragic figure'). But with Zenos there really isn't anything but that 'love to hate', which it turns out a lot of this game's fanbase needs to genuinely get into a villain.

[Lyth]

Zenos does have his share of intelligent dialogue, though. He absolutely demolishes Jullus in a philosophical battle of words. It's just not the focal point of his character.

He's polarizing, but that probably has more to do with his introduction in Stormblood than anything else. Even the initial interviews that first discussed Zenos' character were very focused around 'Check out the CE statue of our new long haired katana wielding ultimate villain, who is totally not Sephiroth! <wink> You're gonna love to hate him!' But that's a recurring problem with Stormblood's writing as a whole - it by and large treats the MSQ as just a set of fond, nostalgic references to other, better stories in the series rather than putting in effort to you feel invested in this one.

Shadowbringers onwards does an excellent job of rewriting him into a more interesting character, if you're able to move past your initial impressions of him. I think the turning point for me was when he intimidated Elidibus out of his own body by literally just staring him down, ended the Ascian plot to kill millions with the Black Rose, and took Gaius and Estinien on in a 2v1 just for funsies without harming either of them, all in the span of a single cutscene. He spent a lot of screentime unnecessarily brooding or obsessing, but he did have his moments. I think that the job change was a smart idea as well - it moved him away from that Sephiroth expy association and more towards becoming his own character.

[Carin-Eri]

I've already said my piece, but honestly - support from friends is one thing, but when an enemy sails the stars, breaks reality, scoffs at the apocalypse and then basically tells you you are better than whatever the hell that thing is....

[vormela]

I am now curious what several of the people in this thread and this thread will think of this, especially after accusing the rest of us of being somehow blind to the "obvious" return of that character.

Well I am glad you are so curious and that you only see posting here as a contest.

I was first captivated by Zenos when he was compared to Fandaniel. They seemed like unlikely allies. Both nihilistic. But Fandaniel was obviously the brains and Zenos the brawn. Fandaniel's attitude and inability to understand Zenos' motivations was a convincing dynamic.

Part of them not agreeing on the means to the end (annihilation) was then expounded upon in Elpis when we met Hermes. Hermes suffered from the effects of dynamis, became preoccupied and spent time alone and marinating in dynamis as he awaited the meteia's answers, and also learned to harness the power of dynamis for cruelty (to Zenos' disdain) as Amon in his recollection of Allag and his return as Fandaniel-In-Asahi's-Body. Fandaniel taking Asahi's body suddenly made sense later when you realize Asahi's sycophancy as a result of dynamis.

Both wanted to die. Both seemed really overpowered and we weren't sure in the patches leading up to Endwalker who would be the biggest bad dude between the two of them. But the interaction between the two really made clear they were operating on different wavelengths. And that was made literal within the story.

Zenos was confusingly paralleled with Venat, portrayed walking through Amaurot (not sure why and would like to know if he was really dreaming or time traveling or what). Asking us if our journey was worthwhile. Challenging us to a duel to the death while embodying a primal and casting primal spells.

Then, like Fandaniel, appropriating a primal for his own ends to kill himself, he became Shinryu and followed us to the only place he could conceivably die as a practical ascian, away from other mortals and the lifestream and at the hand of someone who gave his life meaning. That was why the end of the universe was significant to him. Not because that was where a huge egg of all the despair of the universe was being stored.

And it was a place Fandaniel's actions (both unintentionally and intentionally) created. A decaying place he might actually understand and feel at home in after accepting his realized self--Amon (in the lifestream).

[vormela]

(Ctd.)
Zenos is a dude I consider almost immune to dynamis. He is a sociopath. He was always a sociopath. And somehow they were able to make this person into the biggest hype man I have ever seen. It was absurd and such a relief after the scene with Meteion asking if we can be friends. I don't know if he was meant to represent that primal part of us that despite angst and despair keeps us going...or if like Meteion this was his attempt at communicating through the only means he had (if Meteion wasn't taught to walk, well, here is a guy who was...A TEST OF YOUR REFLEXES!!!), or what the intent was. But he was important to me because of what he showed about other characters and their relation to dynamis.

People on this forum who have never touched a philosophy book in their life and go on that Hydaelyn committed genocide, that it is always a clear-cut battle of good versus evil, people who cannot tolerate nuance, may actually find their own parallels between Zenos and Venat in their general absurdist philosophy about life and their commitment to their goals (both being portrayed as radicals shunned by their societies for pretty dramatic actions that universally destroyed their societies). They both died at the hands of the person who gave their life meaning. They met satisfying ends in the same manner.

I never understood the community's focus on the importance of his voidsent. I still don't understand the reaper significance besides a)Garlemald and b)the reaper coming to end the tale of the star and be slain by the hero of the new day, letting hope live on.

I really love what they did with Zenos. I have faith that whatever they do with his story will be interesting but I also love the existing opportunities to compare him with other characters and found those moments and events to be meaningful and open to interpretation.

I really wish people focused more on what they got out of the story instead of on generalized complaints. Reading reactions to these divisive characters is enlightening. Upvotes really do nothing to show which posts are valuable contributions here. They usually reflect the hivemind and emotional reaction to inflammatory phrasing in the first couple sentences.

[KingEli]

Wild to me that people in this thread think that they were struggling to figure out how to make Zenos in Endwalker rather than them doubling down on everything they made him be. They clearly had 0 regrets with Zenos' role in Endwalker.

[StriderShinryu]

Wild to me that people in this thread think that they were struggling to figure out how to make Zenos in Endwalker rather than them doubling down on everything they made him be. They clearly had 0 regrets with Zenos' role in Endwalker.

I mean, YoshiP himself basically said they didn't really know what to do with him in EW so they kind of just stuck him in there because they had to.

[KingEli]

I mean, YoshiP himself basically said they didn't really know what to do with him in EW so they kind of just stuck him in there because they had to.

That's not what he said, he said "They were worried about how to handle Zenos. He is the only one who sees the WoL as an adventurer and not just a hero, so the fight is more of an extra than a final boss". It's pretty clear that it wasn't about them not knowing what to do and more how precisely they wanted to get him across, especially with his dialogue in Endwalker, everything is very deliberate and to think otherwise just feels like cope tbh.

[KizuyaKatogami]

That's not what he said, he said "They were worried about how to handle Zenos. He is the only one who sees the WoL as an adventurer and not just a hero, so the fight is more of an extra than a final boss". It's pretty clear that it wasn't about them not knowing what to do and more how precisely they wanted to get him across, especially with his dialogue in Endwalker, everything is very deliberate and to think otherwise just feels like cope tbh.

I mean most of the build up for him in ShB just didn’t come true in EW. His whole major speech at the end of ShB of us coming to him full of rage didn’t really happen. He didn’t really do anything to warrant it either…which is either they copped out of having him do something drastic and major to us or our allies or they forgot about it.

[sidurgu-12]

I think it would be really cool if Zenos came back, but in a specific way;

We think hes dead but his avatar possesses his body the moment we teleport out and heals it, 'locking' his soul into the back-seat of said body. The voidsent then is fully in control. Could have for an interesting villain.

In the end we kill said villain, giving bestie his body back, but hes like completely changed because hes been in a prison effectively watching atrocities and we are the ones who free'd him.

soooo..... transformers prime megatron?