Endwalker dungeon pacing is not fun.

[faerieflare]

The problem is designs like that cause problems down the line.

You get the veteran who has done the puzzle/multi-path dungeon thousands of times and doesn't want to spend time exploring or solving puzzles.

You get the player who has done it a few times so the new hasn't quite worn off yet.

You get the player who is new to the dungeon and wants to explore and take their time with the puzzles.


The player in the middle will be just fine with either of the other players. But you get that veteran and that new player in the same group and then there's an issue.

That's why dungeons have shifted to just be long hallways without puzzles. Because it reduces the points of conflict within party groups.

THIS.
I've said this in many threads multiple times. When you get matched with people who want different things (one is just after the tomestone, and the other is the new guy who wants to explore every nook and cranny), problems arise, especially if they're outspoken, or worse, just leave the new player on his/her own. The others know which way is the progress, so they follow the "impatient" guy. So the new guy follows, not knowing what's on the other parts of the dungeons.

When the trust system is introduced for an earlier dungeon, I'm actually quite sad to hear it. Because this is actually the reason, not because "DPS takes forever to queue". That's one reason, but not enough to justify them creating an AI revolving around the dungeons. Trust on SHB and EW is funny because they have the dialogues, but when you have "Spirited Marauder" as your friend, I'd assume things aren't going to be as interesting

[Gruntler]

The boring part comes from the dungeons being just one path with no surprises, at all. Not by not having enough mobs. There is no thinking involved. Fun in a game is measured by decisions per second. The less decisions you have to make, the less fun a game is. Going in auto pilot is not fun. Neither is dying (as the decision to stop is being made for you).

The whole wall to wall is not about being fun (as you are being mechanical when doing it). Is about taking less time when you can pull it off at the expense of more time wasted, more blame and more drama when you can't.

Please the steamrollers only doing it for the tomes, and you get linear, and incredibly boring dungeons. Please the newcomers and you get interesting dungeons that become a chore after the first few runs.

This is not true. Doing big massive pulls and nuking them down with big blaps and aoe kapows is fun af. Learning how to play the game well and doing things in a pacey way is fun. The classes are designed around this.

You're not going to get around that. A lot of people enjoy playing their job and doing so effectively. A lot of people like playing the actual game, and despite efforts to characterize faffing about as 'playing the game' the truth is, the people who are burning stuff down fast ARE actively playing the game and doing so more actively than the one who is not. They're making more 'decisions per second.'

And the existence of multiple walls that stop pulls shows they're NOT catering to W2W players. If they were, there'd be no walls at all, it'd be a mad rush to the boss room, no heals, no one doing anything, then the tank dies, and the healer raises the tank. Trash is is a palette cleanser, but it very easily overstays its welcome, and the faster you can kill trash, the less it overstays its welcome. People want to crush bosses in dungeons, so they're the star of the show.

[PangTong]

At this point the gradual dumbing down of the game has got to be by far my biggest problem with it. I felt Shadowbringers was already very easy but it was at a level I was okay with, but now everything in Endwalker feels even easier still and I just can't see the sense in it.

Like they've already gone past the point of being able to let anyone through, all story mode content can be cleared with multiple players dead the whole time, so the continuous easing of content completely lacks any meaning. It's not even assisting anyone anymore, it's just actively removing stimulating gameplay. Who is still struggling? Who still can't clear story mode? I want to know what kind of player they think is playing this game because I don't understand.

If the game had always been like this it would be one thing, but there has been a clear and consistent reduction of challenge in virtually all areas of the game for 3 expansions straight now, and it's just not fair to the players who are already here and are comfortable with the way things are. Can we at least know where they eventually plan to bottom out?

I used to have fun running dungeons but now when I sign up for them I realize I'm only there for the rewards and I'd rather not run the content at all because it's just so mind-numbing. Mechanics barely tickle even if you fail them, there are no dps/tank/heal checks ever, every sharp edge has been sanded completely smooth, safe, and non-threatening. But games you can't lose aren't fun.

It's not just dungeons either. All normal mode content has suffered this fate. The new Alliance Raid is the easiest they've put out in a long time, which will become obvious next week once people start doing reclears.

Being told "do Extreme/Savage/Ultimate if you want engaging gameplay" is upsetting for one because it didn't use to be that way and secondly because the majority of content in the game is normal mode. It's really not okay for most of the game to be dull on the argument that it's just disposable backdrops meant to funnel players through the story, when players are expected to run that content daily. Maybe I just wanna run some dungeons, why does that have to mean I can't have any fun?

I still love the game in so many other ways but it's getting harder to put up with the day to day gameplay especially when it feels like it's only getting worse over time.

[Jirah]

Time to do some ressing, not a hot button topic like ultimates check points or the Grey goo scenario of accessibility but this Demands more attention.

[Shurrikhan]

The problem is designs like that cause problems down the line.

You get the veteran who has done the puzzle/multi-path dungeon thousands of times and doesn't want to spend time exploring or solving puzzles.

You get the player who has done it a few times so the new hasn't quite worn off yet.

You get the player who is new to the dungeon and wants to explore and take their time with the puzzles.


The player in the middle will be just fine with either of the other players. But you get that veteran and that new player in the same group and then there's an issue.

That's why dungeons have shifted to just be long hallways without puzzles. Because it reduces the points of conflict within party groups.

Let's put it this way, then.

Most players...

• Want a relatively streamlined dungeon experience.
• Minimal one-and-done learning requirements in regard, at least, to basics like dungeon pathing.
• Nonetheless want a varied dungeon experience.
• Want more than just what is obviously hallways of stagnant multi-pull, gate, multi-pull, gate, boss, repeat.

There are a few opportunities that trims, but not that many.

One-time puzzles are a no-go. Randomized puzzles without a single solution method/procedure (to be learned once and simply applied to the change in context), though, can still work.

Multi-path dungeons in which one is most likely to be the best is a no-go because it's a one-time solve. Multi-path dungeons in which the best path is highly contextual is a no-go because it takes additional time to communicate when people would rather just be silently sprinting, AoEing, or STing. But, randomized multi-path dungeons, such that slight variance is forced upon the player? Still a possibility.

Elaborate trash with a mechanic never to be seen again? Likely to be declined on the basis that it's a one-time learning gap (and not in the way we're accustomed to / forgiving of). Elaborate trash that builds off of and builds towards future dungeon trash mechanics? Sure. Why not?

[RayneBoemir]

I definitely would appreciate more dungeons with side mechanics that you have to be aware of to make it more interesting like in the Qitana Ravel rather than just pull mobs pull mobs stop kill next.