Looking back at this Yoshi P statement(story spoilers)

[aveyond-dreams]

The problem here is that in the attempt to "subvert our expectations" they ended up creating a chain of events that was entirely too predictable once we got to Ultima Thule.

Even Stranger of Paradise managed to create more suspense and uncertainty in its final moments of the story.

[kpxmanifesto]

Have you never experienced any media where you knew what was going to happen? Do you only consume media where it's all up in the air even from a consumer perspective?

Of course I have. Sometimes they do it right, sometimes not. But you have to admit there's an air of suspense when the audience doesn't know or can't accurately predict how a story, movie, book, video game is going to play out. In this case, I felt that EW was way too predictable. IMO when the story becomes too predictable, like when we know for a fact that none of the scions are going to die because the current trend is that they always enter a conflict and come out the other side scot-free, the story somewhat loses its thrill. When the scions were disappearing on UT I was like: "Yeah they'll be fine."

[Iscah]

Could you please stay on topic and not move the goalposts? The original post for this thread doesn't talk about the character perspective. We're talking about the story from the audience perspective.

Edit: Lmao, I can't tell if you're trolling or not. But why talk about this video game from the character's perspective? A virtual character isn't real. A video game exists to entertain us, the audience.

I never troll. I am always arguing from a genuine perspective and hope that others are being sincere as well. And I don't see where I am moving the goal posts.

You asked what the point of the "black smoke" and sacrifices are if the audience knows that the characters will survive.

I answered that by saying that why it matters and why that event is still a valuable part of the story is entirely about the emotional state it causes for the characters – and while I did not spell it out, that matters to the audience too.

I don't just watch to see "what happens" but how it happens and think about how they must be feeling. Empathise with them in the moment, regardless of what's going to happen next. That is directly what I get out of the story, whether it's crying at their sadness or joyful at the reunion.

I thought it was clear by the time that Estinien sacrifices himself (if not the after-the-fact way we learned of Thancred's alleged demise) made it almost certain that we were headed for the trope where everyone sacrifices themselves one-by-one and it's all okay at the end. There was a small chance they'd really go through with it and leave everyone dead, but for the most part I recognised the ride I was on and it didn't detract from my enjoyment (or meta enjoyment as I sobbed).

I think it does come down to genre. If I was playing a small arty stand-alone game, character deaths at the finale would be more appropriate and poignant. Here it's an ongoing narrative, and I'd rather see the recurring cast stick around. It would feel wrong at a storytelling level to wipe out the entire cast in a story like this one.

[HollowedDoll]

It just gets to a point where it's too much, and that that point for me was Heavensward.
Let alone the sultana's fakeout death, which let's be real was probably part of some retcon or other, there's this particular scene that perfectly encapsulates FFXIV's cheap emotional impact.
Vidofnir exists, we're making peace between dragon and mankind, wooo!! Oh no.. Estinienhogg! Vidofnir gets stabbed her body slumps to the ground, oh no... the peace we've toiled for is threatened.

2 seconds later

Vidofnir is fine btw guys , making the entire scene pointless, but make sure to make her fakeout death be EXTRA dramatic. Then simply take this formula and proceed to do this with Hemmorhoids the butler or whatever, and Ystolha and Thancred, Gosetsu, Yotsuyu, and the Crystal Catboy, and then the entire cast because you gotta try and get a few tearjerker lines out of the characters, and no I'm not arguing they should've been killed... like literally just AVOID death baiting it's not hard.

[kpxmanifesto]

And I don't see where I am moving the goal posts.

It's pretty obvious that the original point of this thread is to discuss the EW story from the perspective of the audience and not the character. When you make the perspective of the character the main talking point instead of the perspective of the audience like it was originally, you're forcing the people that you're arguing with into changing their replies because now they have a different criterion to aim for.

If you would like to make a new thread that discusses the story from the perspective of the character, you're more than welcome to. I wouldn't be commenting in such a thread because the character perspective IMO carries no weight to me because they are a virtual character.

I answered that by saying that why it matters and why that event is still a valuable part of the story is entirely about the emotional state it causes for the characters – and while I did not spell it out, that matters to the audience too.

Hard disagree on this. You and several others might feel that way, but there are others, including me, that don't. It might've been traumatic for the main character to see all the scions disappearing, but I felt nothing of it because I knew they would be back in fine shape. This circles back to my original point that because there are so many fake death scenes in this game, any other potential death scenes that we encounter we can already predict the outcome of.

[MikkoAkure]

Sorry man, but I'll always call out intellectual dishonesty. If I see someone trying to lie, I'll always say something about it. No hard feelings.

What lie? I'm not responsible for your misunderstanding.

I said that in response to the OP's mention of UT that I didn't believe SE was going to kill the main characters there and there was a reason for the twins' speech. You responded to me with a "rhetorical question" asking why they had to be sacrificed. Iscah responded to you with a valid answer that you brushed aside. After reading other posts in this thread after my post I referred to before, that have nothing to do with you or your post, she said things that I agreed with that were on track with what I said so I assumed we were on the same page.

Then you said that we're not? And that I said that they were never going to kill them and that she said that there was a chance they weren't coming back, while missing the entire context of her post just to make a "gotcha". I don't know if you stopped reading at the first line of her post, but she was talking about the whole situation from the point of view of the characters and specifically not the meta view of the audience's beliefs, which I've explained multiple times now. Her views and mine aren't incongruous because we're talking about two separate points of the scenario so I don't know why her post deserved to be invalidated by you, especially when it's apparent that you didn't read it in its entirety.

[kpxmanifesto]

What lie? I'm not responsible for your misunderstanding.

Lmao, sure man. If that rationale helps you sleep at night, go for it.

[kpxmanifesto]

It just gets to a point where it's too much, and that that point for me was Heavensward.
Let alone the sultana's fakeout death, which let's be real was probably part of some retcon or other, there's this particular scene that perfectly encapsulates FFXIV's cheap emotional impact.
Vidofnir exists, we're making peace between dragon and mankind, wooo!! Oh no.. Estinienhogg! Vidofnir gets stabbed her body slumps to the ground, oh no... the peace we've toiled for is threatened.

2 seconds later

Vidofnir is fine btw guys , making the entire scene pointless, but make sure to make her fakeout death be EXTRA dramatic. Then simply take this formula and proceed to do this with Hemmorhoids the butler or whatever, and Ystolha and Thancred, Gosetsu, Yotsuyu, and the Crystal Catboy, and then the entire cast because you gotta try and get a few tearjerker lines out of the characters, and no I'm not arguing they should've been killed... like literally just AVOID death baiting it's not hard.

LOL, you pretty much nailed it.

[TaleraRistain]

Of course I have. Sometimes they do it right, sometimes not. But you have to admit there's an air of suspense when the audience doesn't know or can't accurately predict how a story, movie, book, video game is going to play out. In this case, I felt that EW was way too predictable. IMO when the story becomes too predictable, like when we know for a fact that none of the scions are going to die because the current trend is that they always enter a conflict and come out the other side scot-free, the story somewhat loses its thrill. When the scions were disappearing on UT I was like: "Yeah they'll be fine."

An air of suspense and a predictable outcome are enjoyed in different ways and for different reasons. As Iscah said, a predictable outcome can still influence the audience because they have empathy with the characters and what they're going through. You've made it obvious that this doesn't apply to you because they're just a virtual character. But your inability to have that empathy doesn't make it a bad story.

[kpxmanifesto]

An air of suspense and a predictable outcome are enjoyed in different ways and for different reasons. As Iscah said, a predictable outcome can still influence the audience because they have empathy with the characters and what they're going through. You've made it obvious that this doesn't apply to you because they're just a virtual character. But your inability to have that empathy doesn't make it a bad story.

I mean, agree to disagree. I think it in fact does make the story less enjoyable.