Looking back at this Yoshi P statement(story spoilers)

[kpxmanifesto]

My point is that a story doesn't need sacrifices and death in the main cast to make it realistic, and using examples from other FF games.

Ok, agree to disagree then. There are some people who believe that its needed, and there are some that don't.

UT came up because the OP himself brought it up.

I'm not allowed to talk about stuff the OP brings up in his own thread?

Now you're just being disingenuous. Even I brought up the fake death scenes on UT as an example. You know fully well that OP's question of asking "what's the point in the narrative for the scions coming back after UT" is way different than your point of: "The whole point of the zone was to show how our friends will sacrifice themselves for a chance to save the world." These are two very different things and I never even asked an actual non-rhetorical question for the whole point of the zone.

[MikkoAkure]

Now you're just being disingenuous. Even I brought up the fake death scenes on UT as an example. You know fully well that OP's question of asking "what's the point in the narrative for the scions coming back after UT" is way different than your point of: "The whole point of the zone was to show how our friends will sacrifice themselves for a chance to save the world." These are two very different things and I never even asked an actual non-rhetorical question for the whole point of the zone.

I directly answered his question in my reply to him. Your bringing up the point where I said "The whole point of the zone was to show how our friends will sacrifice themselves for a chance to save the world." is my response to YOU when you asked why they disappeared in the first place and when Iscah responded and you pushed them away. Iscah and I were talking about different elements of the same point. I was saying from a meta view they were going to come back no matter what happened to them. Iscah said that from a story view, they had to go in order for the path ahead to be opened.

If I instead say "Because SE doesn't want them to die and they were never going to die but they wanted to give some (fake) stakes going into the final battle lmao" would that make you happier?

[kpxmanifesto]

Your bringing up the point where I said "The whole point of the zone was to show how our friends will sacrifice themselves for a chance to save the world." is my response to YOU when you asked why they disappeared in the first place and when Iscah responded and you pushed them away. Iscah and I were talking about different elements of the same point. I was saying from a meta view they were going to come back no matter what happened to them. Iscah said that from a story view, they had to go in order for the path ahead to be opened.

You're still being disingenuous. Yours and Iscah's arguments are different. You acknowledged that the fake deaths on UT "was dumb fake danger the whole time." Iscah's argument is that the threat of the scions dying was very real and that they might not come back. You can try to backpedal and twist your previous argument using made up terminology like "meta view" and "story view," but it won't work. You said what you said, man.

Your bringing up the point where I said "The whole point of the zone was to show how our friends will sacrifice themselves for a chance to save the world." is my response to YOU when you asked why they disappeared in the first place

Also that means you answered a rhetorical question.

[TaleraRistain]

But then that begs the question. Why whisk away the rest of the scions in a cloud of black swirling smoke? Just so they could set up the cutscene where the WoL walks up the stairs by himself?

Yes, it meant the WoL was going to face despair having lost those closest to them. Set aside our omniscience as the player. The WoL didn't know they would be able to get their friends back. Y'shtola had made it pretty clear that even though we had the means for it, doing it before the mission was a success would mean we would fail and the world would be lost. We the player knew there was going to be something that made us able to use that stone. Our part of the ride was seeing exactly how it played out. But the character in the story is experiencing the story being told.

But heres the thing, even in ShB we see some of the scions give in to despair, namely alisaie. You mean to tell me that none of them give in to it even once throughout the course of the final days? .

Have you never been in a situation where everything was relying on you holding it together, where you need to be the rock while others around you are losing it? Internally you're as affected as everyone else. Outwardly, you have to be the steady person because *someone* needs to be.

If you do the healer quests, Fordola almost turns a couple of times. But the fate of the world isn't on her. If the WoL or the Scions give into those thoughts, they may never be able to come back from them. I'm sure the thoughts were there but they knew how important it was they didn't give in to them.

Clearly some people here don't like those sorts of stakes presented unless the audience is equally unconfident at the character's chances of success, but I find it a powerful emotional thing regardless. Imagining how the character must be feeling in that moment, heavy-hearted, everything counting on them so they mustn't give in to despair, mustn't give up, must keep walking forward.

Exactly. How many times do you watch or read something and think "Yep, gonna end this way" but you keep watching or reading to see just how they do it. And our character did feel that, so much that we had a debuff to indicate it. I don't know if people missed that or not, that we weren't just walking for dramatic effect. We were walking because our character was at the lowest point of their life but still had to continue on.

[Iscah]

He's saying that there's a chance that they might not come back.

There are some people who don't think so for some reason, like Iscah, who thinks that they might've actually died.

You seem to have zeroed in on my leading sentence and not my more detailed response in the rest of the post.

I thought I made it clear that I'm talking from a character perspective, and while as the audience of a fiction we can apply tropes and assume they're going to be fine, that doesn't matter to the characters at the time. To them, the danger is real and the sacrifices potentially permanent.

(Also, I'm a "she". But anyway.)

It's a line to be drawn between what we can expect as the audience of a fictional story and what the characters are going through as living people. The others are willing to put their lives on the line in faith that you'll find an opportunity to bring them back, but that doesn't mean (if this is reality and not fiction) that there's a guarantee you'll be able to. If you fail, it's over for everyone.

We know the WoL will not fail. They cannot be certain, however much they hope.

[kpxmanifesto]

??

Could you please stay on topic and not move the goalposts? The original post for this thread doesn't talk about the character perspective. We're talking about the story from the audience perspective.

Edit: Lmao, I can't tell if you're trolling or not. But why talk about this video game from the character's perspective? A virtual character isn't real. A video game exists to entertain us, the audience.

[kpxmanifesto]

Set aside our omniscience as the player.

What good is this for? The whole point of a video game is to entertain its audience, not a virtual character.

[MikkoAkure]

Could you please stay on topic and not move the goalposts? The original post for this thread doesn't talk about the character perspective. We're talking about the story from the audience perspective.

I actually went back to talking about the original topic on hand before you derailed it to talk about me.

[kpxmanifesto]

I actually went back to talking about the original topic on hand before you derailed it to talk about me.

Sorry man, but I'll always call out intellectual dishonesty. If I see someone trying to lie, I'll always say something about it. No hard feelings.

[TaleraRistain]

What good is this for? The whole point of a video game is to entertain its audience, not a virtual character.

Because the argument was that a lack of suffering to the player from the player's omniscient perspective where they had more information than the characters makes the story unrealistic or shallow.

Have you never experienced any media where you knew what was going to happen? Do you only consume media where it's all up in the air even from a consumer perspective? I would be surprised since there's a lot of media out there where you know what the final resolution will be. You as the consumer are along for the journey to get there.