I did not enjoy Shadowbringer (SPOILERS)

[ProstheticSoul]

He used clones because body hopping and altering them takes up energy. Emet doesn't enjoy using any of his aether/power if he doesn't need to. It's why he chose to live as the person he originally possssed until that body dies. Unlike Lahabreha and Elidibus who frequently body hop. To the point Lahabreha did it so much that he basically was burning the candle at both ends. They're only immortal due to the fact you can't easily kill such an aetherical dense person as an Ascian. Along with anyone who has the echo. Or at least that's what they hint at with Zenos since he didn't die and has a fake one. Though it could also be due to the fact Emet is his biological great grandfather.

As Pawpaw stated the Crystal Tower raids was optional and now is a road block soon after completing 2.0. When they made it mandatory due to how the MSQ unfolds if you hadn't done it by the start of 5.3 and you were at that point in the MSQ you'd have to go and unlock it.

Okay, this brings up another can of worms for me. I don't recall any of these details and minutiae involving body possession being debilitating to Ascians anywhere in any major cutscene. And if these points were in a major cutscene, I sure hope it wasn't some 60 hours back in one of the first quest lines in ARR. Because again, I don't have that kind of memory. You're killing me here, Square-Enix. Do I have to look this up in a book somewhere in Limsa or something? In Uldah? Is there a library in Eorzea you guys are getting all of this information from?

This brings me to another question I have. You speak of the body he originally possessed. Does this mean the founder of the Empire was NOT an Ascian but just possessed by an Ascian? Again, questions like these are just one of many I have involving the entirety of Shadowbringer. And it all eventually adds up into an amalgam of utter confusion and incomprehensibility that makes me want to tear my hair out. I have a litany of questions just like this that would destroy the character limit of a single post on here. And that's just for the first part of Shadowbringer.

[HyoMinPark]

Okay, this brings up another can of worms for me. I don't recall any of these details and minutiae involving body possession being debilitating to Ascians anywhere in any major cutscene. And if these points were in a major cutscene, I sure hope it wasn't some 60 hours back in one of the first quest lines in ARR. Because again, I don't have that kind of memory. You're killing me here, Square-Enix. Do I have to look this up in a book somewhere in Limsa or something? In Uldah? Is there a library in Eorzea you guys are getting all of this information from?

While I cannot give a definitive quest name, these revelations were not prior to ShB. During the ShB MSQ, you can actually talk to Emet-Selch each time he shows up with the Scions and he gives you tons of lore about himself, Ascians/the Unsundered, and Zodiark. I remember this information because 1. I immensely enjoyed ShB and absorbed a lot of information as a result, and 2. I’ve also done the full story multiple times.

Shadowbringer

I will also nitpick a bit here: the expansion is titled Shadowbringers. With an s. Not Shadowbringer.

[Cleretic]

Right before the first quest starts there would be a disclaimer that would appear on the screen in big bold letters that would state:
DUDE, IF YOU HAVEN'T DONE THE CRYSTAL TOWER QUEST LINE, THEN JUST DO IT. FOLLOW THAT MIQOTE ALREADY. AND IF YOU HAVE ALREADY FINISHED THE RAIDS, THEN REWATCH ALL OF THE CUT SCENES. YES, ALL OF THEM YOU BIG OAF. THANK ME LATER DUDES AND DUDETTES.
-Yoshi P.

The Crystal Tower itself being a big centerpiece of the setting didn't tip you off that this was probably a relevant piece of story?

And for the record, the actual timeline of the required-ness-itude of the Crystal Tower to Shadowbringers:

From 5.0 through 5.2, the Crystal Tower was recommended reading by the developers, but not enforced in the story. There was ample amount of optional dialog if you did the Crystal Tower, but the core plot didn't ask you to and wasn't written as if you need to know what happened (or even saying that it happened at all; if you hadn't done the Crystal Tower then it acted like you just hadn't done that yet).

Come 5.3, they actually make the Crystal Tower required for progressing in the story, as 5.3 onward touches on actual parts of the Crystal Tower story rather than just the existence of the Tower. This is actually done, as I understand it, by multiple requirement gates: a new character is asked to do the raids during 2.x as the raids are current at that time, an existing character is I believe barred from continuing from both 5.0 and 5.3 until they've done it (I know it's at least one of these, probably both).

You're right that a blind spot in this is that they can't account for someone who has done the raids, but has forgotten. But that's just an ongoing problem in basically every kind of storytelling; most of them don't remind you of important details just to make sure you're on the same page when they do the reveals, they just expect you to retain memory, because... well, if you were that flagrant about it then you just blow the reveal for the people who actually are paying attention enough to get it.

And to answer the 'Garlean emperor was an Ascian' question, this is more specifically explained in Endwalker (but isn't necessarily important to Endwalker, it's just clarified there), so I'll section off the answer into two parts. For Shadowbringers: the Emperor was an Ascian at all points where this question would be a useful question to ask, he possessed a Garlean who hadn't done much of note and molded the nation into the Empire we know them as now. Solus Galvus was an Ascian at all points where Solus Galvus was an important figure.

The Endwalker-given specifics:

Emet-Selch specifically possessed Solus at some point during his twenties or thirties, who was a generally nothing-special soldier. Under Solus' name he climbed the ranks of the nation's politics, introduced magitek, and molded the nation from a republic into a totalitarian empire.

[SannaR]

Lahabreha possessed Thancred's body back in 2.0. The process wasn't complete and by destroying the dark crystal that he used to do it we managed to kick him out. Elidibus has Zenos's body dug up and takes possession of it for the rest of 4.0. Well until Zenos in the body of a regular Garlean foot solider makes it back to Garlemald and the throne room. If you want to travel to other shards or to the source you have to well die. Or if you've technically already done that you need to shed any body you were in in order to do so. It's why the WoL/Wod being in the 1st whole sale is unique. Emet even tells you he did such when he went to the first and yes he took over the body of Solus. No we don't know what happens to the soul of the person if it happens while they're still alive. Most instances that we know of seem to be possession after the person died. Even Ardbert and friends did the whole body ditch when they came to the source on false pretenses of doing Elidibus's deeds thinking it'd save the 1st. Even Unhikalhi you know the strange kid Urianger introduced us who lives in the Solar of the Rising Stones is just like how the Scions are while on the first a soul manifested without a body.

[ProstheticSoul]

While I cannot give a definitive quest name, these revelations were not prior to ShB. During the ShB MSQ, you can actually talk to Emet-Selch each time he shows up with the Scions and he gives you tons of lore about himself, Ascians/the Unsundered, and Zodiark. I remember this information because 1. I immensely enjoyed ShB and absorbed a lot of information as a result, and 2. I’ve also done the full story multiple times.



I will also nitpick a bit here: the expansion is titled Shadowbringers. With an s. Not Shadowbringer.

Let me get this straight, Square-Enix. To comprehend one of, if not the most important aspects to FFXIV's narrative, (The Ascians) the player is expected to have the foresight and clairvoyance to speak to a villain optionally at his or her leisure at key moments of respite throughout the expansion of Shadowbringers to grasp most of the critical nuggets of information surrounding this mysterious and fascinating race of enigmatic body snatchers?

This is video-game writing of the worst ilk. This is not weaving the lore and backstory in a seamless way throughout the protagonist's natural progression in the MSQ. Like forcing the player to constantly pick up notes/journals/audio logs in a shooter or some other genre of game to get any sort of story or context. In short, my criticisms of Shadowbringers are now only piling up, not dwindling. Only silver lining I seem to have gleaned from making this thread is that undertaking new game+ for Shadowbringers is going to be extremely useful. Just a shame that it wouldn't be necessary if Square-Enix remotely understood how narrative coherence works.

[KageTokage]

I wouldn't consider any of the stuff Emet-Selch mentions as critical lore as virtually of it gets brought up later in mandatory dialogue.

[ProstheticSoul]

I wouldn't consider any of the stuff Emet-Selch mentions as critical lore as virtually of it gets brought up later in mandatory dialogue.

Ugh, if that's true...

I will never understand Square-Enix's obsession with explaining lore-critical details hours after the headaches subside from said confusion and one no longer cares anymore about comprehending it all. There's a a proper time and pacing to uncovering mysteries, but the same can't be said for convoluted plot points that do nothing but lessen the impact of the great mystery's unraveling because no one understands what's happening at the given moment.

[KageTokage]

By "later" I mean within 5.0-5.3.

I'd consider all of it foreshadowing at best regardless; namely the bits about Ascian "names" just being titles of office and memory crystals being utilized in filling empty seats of the Convocation.

[HyoMinPark]

Let me get this straight, Square-Enix. To comprehend one of, if not the most important aspects to FFXIV's narrative, (The Ascians) the player is expected to have the foresight and clairvoyance to speak to a villain optionally at his or her leisure at key moments of respite throughout the expansion of Shadowbringers to grasp most of the critical nuggets of information surrounding this mysterious and fascinating race of enigmatic body snatchers?

This is video-game writing of the worst ilk. This is not weaving the lore and backstory in a seamless way throughout the protagonist's natural progression in the MSQ. Like forcing the player to constantly pick up notes/journals/audio logs in a shooter or some other genre of game to get any sort of story or context. In short, my criticisms of Shadowbringers are now only piling up, not dwindling. Only silver lining I seem to have gleaned from making this thread is that undertaking new game+ for Shadowbringers is going to be extremely useful. Just a shame that it wouldn't be necessary if Square-Enix remotely understood how narrative coherence works.

I stand by what I said before: if you are this nitpicky about ShB, you won’t enjoy EW’s story.

[ProstheticSoul]

I stand by what I said before: if you are this nitpicky about ShB, you won’t enjoy EW’s story.

I would heavily beg to differ on any of my criticisms being nitpicks.

And lo and behold, yet another cut scene featuring Urangier spouting exposition with Elidibus that completely flew over my head because he is the only character in the Scion gang who insists on using Shakespearean syntax in its entirety in his manner of speech. This is growing wearisome. Each cut scene is becoming more and more tedious than the one preceding it. While I'm still trying to decipher one that occurred 10 minutes ago, another one comes along that throws me into even more of a tizzy.

I do believe I have had an epiphany. My enjoyment of an expansion is in an inverse relationship with how many instances Urianger appears in--and speaks--in any given cut scene within said expansion. The more he is involved, the less I enjoy it. Imagine Kingdom Hearts if you will. Imagine all of the terminology, the meandering stories, subplots, the characters, their subsequent interactions, the sequels upon sequels upon sequels...got all that? Good. Now replace all of the dialogue with pure, unadulterated Shakespearean vernacular.

Can someone please explain to me what just happened when the "Not Warrior of Light" created an illusion of a star shower, thereby granting the gift of the echo to all of those WoL wannabes? I mean, Urianger technically "explained" it, but I didn't get any of it.