Would removing clemency allow for a better pld?

[Senden]

That would be terrible, Clemency is my time to shine in 5 mans when the healer dies. I've had a run where the healer was drunk and died to every boss at the first mechanic, it was really satisfying being able to both tank and heal myself and other dps throughout the run.

[Deveryn]

Skipping phases? That's been outed years ago.... I am from 2.0 and DPS has always been the main priority system of this game, DPS makes fights easier, it reduces mistakes. I speed run Savage Raids, clear 1st week Savage Raids, etc, this is clear miss information. You will only find better capable players if you log really well in your parses, solid players don't play with low grade.

It's clear you don't understand what I'm talking about. That's fine. I honestly don't care to delve too deep into it, as it goes off track a bit.

Perhaps you should play with low grade or at least make an effort to educate and keep good information out there. At least consider the fact that what we're talking about here affects more than just regular savage tier content.

Good day.

[Undeadfire]

Alright, you asked for it bud.

Clemency is part of what makes PLD the actual best tank in the game. I've had countless situations where I've been able to use that and other skills to help people hang on and get a fight done.

Clemency interrupts GCDs, only useful when a Healer is dead, otherwise provides nothing to the table. Healers can use O-GCDs stronger than Clemency without a GCD cost.

Cover is underrated, btw. There are a lot of effects in game that won't go through if the target takes 0 damage.

Most mechanics in raids punishes you for trying it, SE made sure you couldn't for most. Eden Savage, Pandae Savage Cover could do nothing than your own uptime benefit, any other mechanic straight out killed you. HG won't block debuffs than Damage down debuffs. And SE placed in mechanics for tanks as DPS obtains mechanics making it virtually impossible.

Some folks are too hung up on this idea of everything having to do DPS. Maybe they should stick to that realm of job to begin with. At the very least, look at playing one of the other tanks with more DPS in mind, like GNB.

You can't clear Savage/Ultimate content 1st weeks without solid DPS, it's impossible. SE designed them around making sure every job is able to clear with their DPS outputs. Ninja was horribly useless for 2-3 weeks in Edens Gate Savage. Pld was near useless in Pandae Savage 1st week. Dungeons are meant to be cleared by everyone in the community, it's how they're designed. Speed is always going to be 1st choice if offered, majority do not wish 30-40 min dungeons.

To any that say a healer's output will be enough, you haven't seen what some of them are (not) doing these days. They're trying to favor DPS in dungeons because they're told that's what works in raids. I've seen all kinds of missteps from SCH not using soil to WHM burning afflatus stacks IN BETWEEN PULLS for that one lily shot. I was working on my GNB's tank you achievement and I did most of that with a friend who I can trust to heal me. I've now shelved the job until next expansion.

That's how it's always worked, and works in Dungeons. Here I'll make a brain dead example. DPS Healer vs Pure healer: Wall pull with DPS Healer, pack dies in roughly 30-50s, loads of MP to spare and cooldowns to spare. Wall pull with Pure healer, you waste almost 2 minutes fighting the same mobs and individually run out of resources for the next wall pull. Hello? DPS saves resources, it saves time, it saves cooldowns, it stops mistakes. Sage cannot operate without DPS, Whm loses all it's MP without Holy stuns and fast kills, Ast/Sch are mechanically designed to DPS. Healing received 20-30% cut making DPS all the more worth it.

If I don't understand what you're talking about, you need to make better sense than trying to gate keep.

[Deveryn]

Alright, you asked for it bud.

-snip

If I don't understand what you're talking about, you need to make better sense than trying to gate keep.

No, I honestly didn't ask for this.
I said "Good Day."

gate keep. lol. Please try this nonsense on someone else. Good Day! (Buen Dia. Basta por favor. No me interese)

[Faafetai]

Also please put a built-in Awareness (can't be hit by critical hits) effect into Sheltron so Paladin doesn't feel like utter pain when doing old content with random (all pre-80 content) or forced criticals (Dun Scaith: Diabolos Hollow, O3S: Critical Hit buster, Shinryu EX: Tera Slash). Having your Sheltron be completely deleted because you can't block a critical hit is just dumb since Awareness got removed.

I am not going crazy! I knew it wasn't blocking crits!!! I have been wondering about this for a while because it has been bothering me. It also randomly started blocking magic now? I do not remember it blocking ice sprites in vigil but sure enough it does now, I don't think it was a year ago when I first started going through as paladin.

Also unsure if it would be over powered but cover hollowed ground will sometimes not go through to me but sometimes the covered targets damage depending on source of damage will go through to me, is that also going through? Is it because certain things are critting or is this normal. Unsure if it should be completely negated if you use hollowed, I don't know how the damage is calculated or how it interacts with each other perfectly at this moment. More testing must be done.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

I am not going crazy! I knew it wasn't blocking crits!!! I have been wondering about this for a while because it has been bothering me. It also randomly started blocking magic now? I do not remember it blocking ice sprites in vigil but sure enough it does now, I don't think it was a year ago when I first started going through as paladin.

Also unsure if it would be over powered but cover hollowed ground will sometimes not go through to me but sometimes the covered targets damage depending on source of damage will go through to me, is that also going through? Is it because certain things are critting or is this normal. Unsure if it should be completely negated if you use hollowed, I don't know how the damage is calculated or how it interacts with each other perfectly at this moment. More testing must be done.

Yea, so damage rolls as Crit > Block > Parry > Dodge, so game will check through all of these before landing a normal hit, Block only applies to PLD, and Parry will only apply to Physical Damage. You are 5 years late, as Blocking has been possible on Magic Damage since Stormblood.

Cover and Hallowed Ground have never interacted together, even though some people claim that it worked all the way back in ARR, but it has been proven it does not interact even back then. Any damage transferred by Cover from target will ignore Hallowed Ground but all other mitigation including likes of Rampart, Sentinel, Sheltron / Holy Sheltron, or any other Damage Reduction given by other party members and HP shields will apply to the damage transferred from Cover.

[Arohk]

Clemecy is super good as it is.

[NeoDivinity]

Do you guys even play this game?

Most of these discussions does not even make sense, Clemency breaking a combo isnt an excuse to remove it what the hell. Would be nice if you could use it and not break a combo but just as every situational ability you will only use it in specific situations. Not everything in your kit should be aimed to increase damage, specially on a TANK role.

Also give me a break, you will amost never target someone else Nascent Flesh if the healer is not dead, and even if you do need to use it on a very split second situation you'll probably also lose some damage due to retargeting and stuff.

Having Clemency isnt 1 less damage GCD because without it you won't have an additional one anyway, if one thing should be removed or buffed is Circle of Scorn damage and Cover gauge cost of all the abilities these are just trash right now.

Now if your perspective of a PLD tool kit is nothing besides dungeons and ex primals, of course you'll never find a use for everything it has to offer. Hells most PLD don't even use Passage of Arms because they actually don't know they can weave it and the buff keeps going for a few secs.
I can't even count how many times on Savage or Utimate progs Clemency came in clutch to repair a mistake and helping to push a phase or even saving the entire run.

[Luin]

Clemency, the reason for taxing pld.
Looked great when I started the job, but now I know how counter intuitive it is, it feels bad to use.

When you use clemency, you are sacrificing damage.
It breaks combos, some healers resent you for using it, some might expect you to use it, but either way it feels terrible to use.

It’s a completely different feeling than verraising or swiftcast raising a dead healer as a dps, that is satisfying. Clemency just always feels bad, even when the healer dies and you use it to keep yourself and the dps alive, you’re thinking to yourself, “I could be nascent flashing the dps without sacrifice”

Like, there are several pld “utility” abilities that seems completely unnecessary and counter-intuitive.

I’m just left thinking now, why not fundamentally rethink pld and clemency?

It’s not that I don’t enjoy pld. I actually am ok with it’s damage and like the rotation, it just irks me to think that pld is being held back by an ability that most every pld comes to learn to not use, or to hate using.

If clemency were simply removed, people could stop the whole “clemency tax” nonsense, and just make a much better pld job, eh?

clemency isnt a tax because paladins almost never use clemency. It's just a flavor ability that happens to be useful in prog and casual content.

[Lyth]

Clemency has been around a long time. Players generally were more agreeable to the idea of sacrificing damage for utility in 2015 than they are now. I think that it makes sense to update it so that it matches up with more modern action design.

It makes sense thematically for PLD to have a cast heal spell that they can use on demand. I don't think that it should break combo, because both the MP cost and the cast time already penalize you for using it. There should be conditions under which it occasionally becomes instant cast and free, so that it's not just sitting there waiting for a rainy day. It also makes more sense than having your healing come from vampiric effects on Holy Spirit/Circle, which have very similar heal potency/MP efficiency to Clemency when used for personal healing (0.4 potency/MP vs. 0.5 potency/MP).

Cover's main issue historically has been is that it has been uniquely powerful in breaking mechanics on certain fights. It's also iconic, so they can't just get rid of it. I think the easier solution is to change the effect to match with earlier games in the series, such that you take damage on behalf of said teammate only if the attack would otherwise kill them. Then upgrade it into Intervention and merge in the effect.

I will say that, given the number of players on this subforum who have repeatedly flagged PLD as being both 'overly complex' and having 'button bloat', I suspect that the dev team will have a specific interest in targeting those two 'problems' in the coming patches, much like they've been doing for certain DPS jobs as of late. Especially because PLD is usually the very first tank that new players are going to encounter when playing the game for the first time. I personally think that 'complexity' in particular is an overused term.