Job action combos one button

[Shirala]

Since I'm old and disabled, I use macros to get around the mass quantities of buttons to push already. I know that it is not optimal due to the delay, but it is the only way that I can play this game. I've been playing MMOs since 1995 with The Realm, so I'm not new to the genre.

I'd love it if it was more streamlined.

[ForteNightshade]

This presumes that any decrease to present button count would necessitate that new button-consuming actions must fill the then savable spaces. While I wouldn't be opposed to that, it runs contrary to trends since Heavensward, which have usually seen increasingly less depth included per button and have been increasingly less accepting of higher button counts, even to the point of removing actual and more integral depth (e.g., Monk's ability to position once each per stanceless DoT period) to try to remain within a "comfortable" button total.

While that may be the case, several jobs already won't gain much space even if combos where consolidated, thus any new additions come 7.0 will start pushing people towards it if implemented. A job like say, Ninja or Gunbreaker aren't saving all that much space. Which means they'll eventually be squeezed into it as new abilities are added over time. Regardless, this is more in response to people who insist if combos were consolidated, they'll suddenly add in new combos for tanks; more DPS for healers and etc. A lot of people who do ask for this often believe it'll pave the way for added depth and not simply less buttons with little else. If it actually led to depth, I'd be more open to it.

First, it's not a new system. We've had it since Stormblood.

Second, so what? At worst, those who refuse to consolidate go from, say, some 24 buttons to 27. That's hardly damning to those who like their buttons or consequent finger drift.

It is for PvP. If the transition were simple enough to move over, I suspect they would have done so already.

As for caring? Well, all the people who dislike combo consolidation. I'll throw that back at you. Who cares if you find 123 pointless? At the end of the day, we're essentially arguing preference.

(A) jobs will get more complex and thus make the option no longer an option, or (B) that the option will remain as much an option (and simply that, with it becoming more obvious that there are no unique affordances to having those separate buttons for rigid combos, fewer people will feel inclined to favor that bit of extra memory aid over button efficiency and thereby depopularize something you prefer, even if it still remains truly an option)?

You neglected a third option where some jobs that are already squeezed even with combo consolidation are inevitably forced into a system they don't want because new buttons are continuously added and now there isn't a reason to prune away any. You're also assuming people are simply unaware combos aren't unique per se and just don't realize they can condensed. Most are. They simply don't like the idea.

[Shurrikhan]

You neglected a third option where some jobs that are already squeezed even with combo consolidation are inevitably forced into a system they don't want because new buttons are continuously added and now there isn't a reason to prune away any. You're also assuming people are simply unaware combos aren't unique per se and just don't realize they can condensed. Most are. They simply don't like the idea.

I'm making no such assumption. I have simply noted that the evidence thus far points to any consolidated spaces not being filled by new skills or other reasons for consolidation ignored on the mere basis that some players already reduced their button counts.

It is for PvP. If the transition were simple enough to move over, I suspect they would have done so already.

If it's something that the devs want to do regardless, and somehow instead a combo of IDs X, Y, and Z cannot behave like those of A, B, and C (despite PvP skills separating from PvE skills only when PvP was equalized across level brackets), then how can one make the claim that consolidation would be "un-XIV-like"?

As for caring? Well, all the people who dislike combo consolidation. I'll throw that back at you. Who cares if you find 123 pointless? At the end of the day, we're essentially arguing preference.

No, we're arguing options. If your preference can exist only by removing any possibility of others meeting their own preferences --i.e., your preference must forever trump all others-- then we're arguing the space for options. I'm arguing to have relevant options, while thus far you've argued that any such option be barred.

Your preference is met and could still be met with options. Others' are not and cannot be met without such an option. The trick here is that you then add that your choice might, if things go in precisely your hypothesized direction (Yoshida suddenly decides to no longer renovate existing job abilities with further expansions and that jobs should have more --button-consuming-- depth) might devalue your choice and thus others should have literally zero choice.

That's not just an argument for the superiority of your preference, but that it should be the only one supported or available to players.

[Wyakin]

Let's not forget people play on controller too.

Collapsing buttons isn't so much about ease as it is basic Quality of Life. The GNB continuation change was much needed as it was a terribly cumbersome combo to execute. If any further changes come down the road, they'll likely be similar to this.

Do not put all controller players in the same boat. If you cannot fit all the buttons for a class onto your hotbars then you’re doing it wrong. Remove some of the stupid buttons like emotes and minions or mounts you simply don’t need and you’ll find you actually have more than enough space.

Threads like this one have been brought up numerous times and I hope SE continues to ignore every one of them.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Like I said, the option thing is an irrelevant point, options have to be designed around.

No, because they are options. I... just don't know how to say it any other way.

I dont know how positionals have anything to do with this topic.

If you have positionals, you can't 1-1-1 mindlessly, so it doesn't make things easier except on the hands.

There is an insanely good player who plays with only one hand (and I think 2 fingers missing on that hand aswell) who has cleared like everything afaik. That guy is a lot better than most people without any disabilities so I'm not convinced that combo collapsing is honestly a disability thing.

There was also a disabled MCH player who used to play the game on controller using his feet, and was able to do his rotation perfectly. This was back when MCH had rng combos.

Rin Karigani recently broke his elbow, and was able to hit 99 percentiles with one hand after a week or so of practice, despite having years of ingrained muscle memory around using both hands.

Sure, disabled people just don't try hard enough.

You should be shameful of saying that sort of things. I'm glad some people can play well with disabilites, but you both are just elitists that use some examples as an excuse to speak shit, and I don't even want to argue with you anymore, you're just despicable.

[hagare]

It does make the job easier though, the attention you need for where you are in your combo is suddenly freed up entirely.



Calling it an option is pretty irrelevant, it's inherently linked to job balance and fight difficulty. Options have to be designed around. Breaking combo is an attention thing, if it's a matter of dexterity I'd wager the real problem is proper hotbar setup.

I can see your point with combo steps that are completely unavailable outside the specific time you are supposed to press them. That's why I wasnt against the cartridge combo collapse on gunbreaker. I wouldnt apply that logic to all combos in the game however.

This game's pve combat system is designed around keeping your rotation going, that's where job difficulty comes from. So every part of the rotation that gets automated away makes the job and therefore the game easier. PvP on the other hand focuses more on correct prioritization of enemies and objectives. The role play duties on the other hand have intentionally extremely dumbed down versions of jobs because they cant assume that you know what any of the regular job actions do. Which makes the pure combat roleplay duties a bit dull from a gameplay standpoint and makes the this is thancred duty shine more because it takes a different approach.

yeah, positionals, where to squeeze in an oGCD would still make you pay attention.
But it does get easier. From the ease of pushing 123 to the ease of pushing 111

[Saraide]

No, because they are options. I... just don't know how to say it any other way.



If you have positionals, you can't 1-1-1 mindlessly, so it doesn't make things easier except on the hands.





Sure, disabled people just don't try hard enough.

You should be shameful of saying that sort of things. I'm glad some people can play well with disabilites, but you both are just elitists that use some examples as an excuse to speak shit, and I don't even want to argue with you anymore, you're just despicable.

Are you speaking from experience with disabilities? This isnt the first time this discussion is happening and I always get the impression a lot of people are just trying to speak for people with disabilities without knowing or even caring about the people they are allegedally standing up for.

Every option devs build into the game has to be designed around, that's just how it is. You cant give an option and then pretend it doesnt exist. There are mods that already allow the combo collapsing and iirc it's one of the most downloaded plugins. Do you want to tell me everyone of those people is facing disabilities? Or do they just want to have an easier time with their rotation and their hotbar setup.

yeah, positionals, where to squeeze in an oGCD would still make you pay attention.
But it does get easier. From the ease of pushing 123 to the ease of pushing 111

I'm not saying you wouldnt have to pay attention at all anymore, I'm saying you are automating away the attention you needed to spend on your basic combo. When you have entire burst window happening and at the same time a complicated mechanic to resolve, going back to your regular combo just takes a bit of attention that you just wouldnt need anymore.
Why are you trying to distract with positionals and oGCDs?

[Shirala]

Are you speaking from experience with disabilities? This isnt the first time this discussion is happening and I always get the impression a lot of people are just trying to speak for people with disabilities without knowing or even caring about the people they are allegedally standing up for.

Every option devs build into the game has to be designed around, that's just how it is. You cant give an option and then pretend it doesnt exist. There are mods that already allow the combo collapsing and iirc it's one of the most downloaded plugins. Do you want to tell me everyone of those people is facing disabilities? Or do they just want to have an easier time with their rotation and their hotbar setup.

I am disabled and I think your first post was extremely insulting. Sure, a young healthy guy had an injury and learned to adapt. That says nothing other than the guy was driven to do such a thing.

The devs need to take into consideration people who cannot push a million buttons or have slower reflexes. Make it an option if other folks want to be challenged with the original setup.

[Saraide]

I am disabled and I think your first post was extremely insulting. Sure, a young healthy guy had an injury and learned to adapt. That says nothing other than the guy was driven to do such a thing.

The devs need to take into consideration people who cannot push a million buttons or have slower reflexes. Make it an option if other folks want to be challenged with the original setup.

I'm sorry I came across as insulting to you.

Making it just an option unfortunately doesnt mean anything. It would be something that the game then needs to be designed around as it would very clearly be an intended way of playing the game. There is a little bit of risk involved with playing the original setup that a combo collapse wouldnt face anymore (that's the whole point of it). However that risk isnt just something you alone are facing. This is a team game so by making it an option you're essentially making everyone who doesnt like a bit of an extra risk to the party. Whatever they choose to do, it will always affect everyone playing that job and everyone in the same party as them.

This is my first post in this thread btw:

Two things:

I think there are better ways to adress the button bloat that does exist on some jobs as it doesnt even affect a lot of jobs, stuff like undraw.

Remembering where you are in your combo takes a bit of attention that collapsing all combos into one button would automate away. Sure, no one is gonna miss a combo action when attacking a target dummy. But when something like firestorms together with your burst window is going on things might look a bit different. And keep in mind jobs balance is done for the harder content in the game. If you drift like a madman on a dungeon boss, why do you even care.

I do find it weird that some people act like collapsing combos is such a huge deal in terms of reducing button bloat but at the same time act like it's no big deal at all whenever they face pushback against the idea.

How is that insulting? My very first point was essentially agreeing that there is button bloat and that it can be solved. I just dont think combo collapse is the correct approach.

What actually takes effort, for people with or without disability alike, is setting up your hotbars in a way that works for you. A lot of people dont want to spend that effort and rarely can you make someone else do your hotbars for you because that's a highly personal thing.

[hagare]

Are you speaking from experience with disabilities? This isnt the first time this discussion is happening and I always get the impression a lot of people are just trying to speak for people with disabilities without knowing or even caring about the people they are allegedally standing up for.

Every option devs build into the game has to be designed around, that's just how it is. You cant give an option and then pretend it doesnt exist. There are mods that already allow the combo collapsing and iirc it's one of the most downloaded plugins. Do you want to tell me everyone of those people is facing disabilities? Or do they just want to have an easier time with their rotation and their hotbar setup.



I'm not saying you wouldnt have to pay attention at all anymore, I'm saying you are automating away the attention you needed to spend on your basic combo. When you have entire burst window happening and at the same time a complicated mechanic to resolve, going back to your regular combo just takes a bit of attention that you just wouldnt need anymore.
Why are you trying to distract with positionals and oGCDs?

positionals and oGCDs are disctractions?
They're part of your core rotation. You don't just press your 3 main combo ya know.
Seems like people who object to this change think that your main combo exists in a vacuum. *shrug*