Job action combos one button

[Saraide]

Two things:

I think there are better ways to adress the button bloat that does exist on some jobs as it doesnt even affect a lot of jobs, stuff like undraw.

Remembering where you are in your combo takes a bit of attention that collapsing all combos into one button would automate away. Sure, no one is gonna miss a combo action when attacking a target dummy. But when something like firestorms together with your burst window is going on things might look a bit different. And keep in mind jobs balance is done for the harder content in the game. If you drift like a madman on a dungeon boss, why do you even care.

I do find it weird that some people act like collapsing combos is such a huge deal in terms of reducing button bloat but at the same time act like it's no big deal at all whenever they face pushback against the idea.

[Shurrikhan]

I do find it weird that some people act like collapsing combos is such a huge deal in terms of reducing button bloat but at the same time act like it's no big deal at all whenever they face pushback against the idea.

As an option, it would be a pretty big deal for certain jobs.

Consider DRG, for instance. There's just 1 button to save via other means, Mirage Dive hotswapping onto (High) Jump, but up to 7 to save by offering simply a Chaos Thrust, Full Thrust, and Coerthan Tempest combo. SAM sees a fair bit from both ends, 3 buttons saved from combo consolidation and a button each saved from consolidation on Ikishoten and Tsubame Gaeshi, and perhaps one further if --per other, alternate requests-- Senei were made a traited, conditional variation of Guren (for when only one enemy is found within its AoE check). On the other hand, other jobs, like Monk, only have those other forms of consolidation anyways, such as the Masterful Blitz hotswapping over Perfect Balance.

I think for many, though, it's more a matter of principle: the only difference between (A) skills that literally cannot be used except in order or on available proc, and can therefore just be key-slid* over to the same effect as button consolidation anyways, and (B) true combos is simply possibility for hitting the wrong key, which quickly becomes insignificant except for those with significant lost physical dexterity and the like, an odd choice for skill-gap.

*Key sliding is when the sliding of one's finger across a set of keys, from highest to lowest priority, such that the first possible action is used. For instance, with the old Gnashing Fang combo, one could just slide from Shift-3 (Wicked Talon) to Shift-1 (Gnashing Fang) to guarantee that you'd hit the next skill in series, and even now one can do the same for Wheeling Thrust and Fang and Claw and Refulgent Arrow and Burst Shot. There's no more actual need to hit the "right" key than with consolidation.

In other words, despite the set of actions ("true combos") being equally mutually exclusive and unable to be reordered in practice, they are somehow protected as a category of their own, which can seem rather... odd. They have none of the affordances (reordering for optimization) than Monk combos have, yet take up just as many buttons.

Consider: Monk and DRG each have 11 GCD skills, yet while Monk has 11 GCD choices, and 3-9 rotational choices in a given GCD, DRG has only 4 GCD choices, and only 1 to 2 rotational choices in a given GCD. Combo consolation (the likes of Gnashing Fang) or combo freeing (the likes of Monk) would simply put their choices-per-button-spent on par, one way or the other.

Additionally, there is a difference between arguing that (A) yes, such an option would provide significant unbloating for the most affected jobs, and (B) no, the mere fact that buttons are saved for those who use the option would not necessitate that the job kits suddenly get more tools to fill those spaces. It's not a contradiction; they address two separate questions: Can combo consolidation provide significant savings? Yes. Would this actually be an option? Yes; there's no reason to think the devs would suddenly feel pressured to fill the saved button space or thereby disadvantage players who chose not to consolidate their combos (who have lower button efficiency but retain their tactile cues and likely chose not to consolidate specifically because those cues were more valuable to them than that efficiency).

[hagare]

I do and I do.

If it helps at all, just add a /s to my post.

While there is no real skill required to memorize and repeat a series of button presses, if you are going to slim down the combat to pressing 1 button over and over for your GCD actions, why not go all the way? As for the rest of the post, I was taking the **** on the entire idea.

I truly hate this idea, I despise that it was ever added to PVP and we will see these posts nonstop until the end of time or they give in and do it. At which point, the requests will change to now be requests to add more things into it until we have the famed JP button from FFXI.

That was the point of my post, that these requests are ridiculous.

so instead of one combo set you prefer a meaningless 123 combo.
There are other buttons you know.
Why not all the way? Because not everything is meaninglessly bloated.
People aren't asking this so the gameplay becomes easier. Hell, the APM is the same.
the only change is which button you press. Instead of 123, it's now just 111. With the proper oGCD in between.
If you used to press 1>C1>2>C2>3>C3, it's now 1>C1>1>C2>1>C3. Same six actions.
And you know this.
You admitted that it's meaningless and takes no real skill just having 3 buttons for 3 actions with artificial differences.
So rather than an /s on your post, a /disingenuous would be more appropriate.

[Saraide]

so instead of one combo set you prefer a meaningless 123 combo.
There are other buttons you know.
Why not all the way? Because not everything is meaninglessly bloated.
People aren't asking this so the gameplay becomes easier. Hell, the APM is the same.
the only change is which button you press. Instead of 123, it's now just 111. With the proper oGCD in between.
If you used to press 1>C1>2>C2>3>C3, it's now 1>C1>1>C2>1>C3. Same six actions.
And you know this.
You admitted that it's meaningless and takes no real skill just having 3 buttons for 3 actions with artificial differences.
So rather than an /s on your post, a /disingenuous would be more appropriate.

It does make the job easier though, the attention you need for where you are in your combo is suddenly freed up entirely.

(snip)

Calling it an option is pretty irrelevant, it's inherently linked to job balance and fight difficulty. Options have to be designed around. Breaking combo is an attention thing, if it's a matter of dexterity I'd wager the real problem is proper hotbar setup.

I can see your point with combo steps that are completely unavailable outside the specific time you are supposed to press them. That's why I wasnt against the cartridge combo collapse on gunbreaker. I wouldnt apply that logic to all combos in the game however.

This game's pve combat system is designed around keeping your rotation going, that's where job difficulty comes from. So every part of the rotation that gets automated away makes the job and therefore the game easier. PvP on the other hand focuses more on correct prioritization of enemies and objectives. The role play duties on the other hand have intentionally extremely dumbed down versions of jobs because they cant assume that you know what any of the regular job actions do. Which makes the pure combat roleplay duties a bit dull from a gameplay standpoint and makes the this is thancred duty shine more because it takes a different approach.

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

It does make the job easier though, the attention you need for where you are in your combo is suddenly freed up entirely.

Not if you have positionals, as said before.

This game's pve combat system is designed around keeping your rotation going, that's where job difficulty comes from. So every part of the rotation that gets automated away makes the job and therefore the game easier.

Job are easier or harder depending on how hard it is to optimize your rotation to the boss, not how hard it is to keep your rotation going, hence why physical ranged are almost always considered easier than hard casters or melees. Every monkey with half a brain can have a perfect rotation on a dummy, given he has the adequate inputs, and inputs do not discriminate better players, they discriminate against people that have disabilites.

What makes a good player isn't their ability to do their rotation, but to adjust to every fight, do mechanics perfectly, and keep uptime. Rotations are the fun part, not the hard part. But, by having bloating issues, you discriminate some players from being able to do their rotation effectively, and thus, from playing at a good level.

Some pages ago, someone said that you could macro different hotbars to have the same input do different skills, but that is not really an option as well, since it's basically like adding an oGCD in your rotation every time you need to swap hotbars, so it makes life harder for those that can't do the same number of input that you do.

All in all, the best way to ensure people with disabilities can play like the rest of us is to give that option to players.

[Saraide]

Not if you have positionals, as said before.



Job are easier or harder depending on how hard it is to optimize your rotation to the boss, not how hard it is to keep your rotation going, hence why physical ranged are almost always considered easier than hard casters or melees. Every monkey with half a brain can have a perfect rotation on a dummy, given he has the adequate inputs, and inputs do not discriminate better players, they discriminate against people that have disabilites.

What makes a good player isn't their ability to do their rotation, but to adjust to every fight, do mechanics perfectly, and keep uptime. Rotations are the fun part, not the hard part. But, by having bloating issues, you discriminate some players from being able to do their rotation effectively, and thus, from playing at a good level.

Some pages ago, someone said that you could macro different hotbars to have the same input do different skills, but that is not really an option as well, since it's basically like adding an oGCD in your rotation every time you need to swap hotbars, so it makes life harder for those that can't do the same number of input that you do.

All in all, the best way to ensure people with disabilities can play like the rest of us is to give that option to players.

Do you have experience with playing with a disability or are you just talking for someone else? Like I said, the option thing is an irrelevant point, options have to be designed around. I dont know how positionals have anything to do with this topic.

Knowing the rotation and being able to execute it are two different things. No small part of that latter depends on how well you know the fight. But that just means the better you are at mechanics the better you become at your rotation and the better you are with your rotation the better you become at mechanics. You can not seperate them. A good player is able to execute their rotation while resolving mechanics.

There is an insanely good player who plays with only one hand (and I think 2 fingers missing on that hand aswell) who has cleared like everything afaik. That guy is a lot better than most people without any disabilities so I'm not convinced that combo collapsing is honestly a disability thing.

[Ransu]

The function keys, on most keyboards I've seen, are either inside the alt key (thus not preferable over Alt for larger hands anyways) or are --typically smaller-- on the far end of the keyboard...

The function keys are the F1-F12 keys. What you're thinking of is the FN key is just a modifier key that tells a key to do a different input than its default input.

[LittleImp]

One button spam is deeply unpopular in the places it already exists in-game. It's one of the most criticized aspects of Healer gameplay, BRD gameplay, and certain solo duties. If anything, I'd like to see them further expand on combos and add more branching combo options to some jobs. On PLD, there are a lot of fight specific combo chains and otherwise interesting ways you can manipulate their rotation due to the way their combos interact.

There is an insanely good player who plays with only one hand (and I think 2 fingers missing on that hand aswell) who has cleared like everything afaik. That guy is a lot better than most people without any disabilities so I'm not convinced that combo collapsing is honestly a disability thing.

There was also a disabled MCH player who used to play the game on controller using his feet, and was able to do his rotation perfectly. This was back when MCH had rng combos.

Rin Karigani recently broke his elbow, and was able to hit 99 percentiles with one hand after a week or so of practice, despite having years of ingrained muscle memory around using both hands.

In my case I actually struggle to play Healers because after awhile the repetition of pressing one button actually causes a lot of pain in my hand.

[Deveryn]

Let's not forget people play on controller too.

Collapsing buttons isn't so much about ease as it is basic Quality of Life. The GNB continuation change was much needed as it was a terribly cumbersome combo to execute. If any further changes come down the road, they'll likely be similar to this.

[CaptainLagbeard]

There have been many discussions about this in the past...

Personally I would think it would be a good thing to do to clean up a few action bar slots... But certain classes couldn't get it done. Monk and Samurai being the most prominent examples because of Perfect Balance and Meikyo Shisui respectively.

There are some other squashing that could be done to save space on some classes other than the combos as well.
PLD, Confiteor needing Requiescat to use, it could easily change into Confiteor upon being used and when it gives the buff... Maybe add a slight internal cooldown between the two to avoid Confiteor going off too early.
WAR, Primal Rend needs Inner Release to use. Simple.
DRG, Mirage Dive can only be used after using (High)Jump.
BRD, Shadowbite is only usable after a proc from Quick Nock/Ladonsbite, Pitch Perfect only usable during Wanderer's Minuet.
MCH, Rook/Queen Overdrive is only usable while the Rook or Queen is active. Heat Blast is only usable during Hypercharge.