World of Warcraft died because the developers only catered to casuals and world prog

[ArcaviusGreyashe]

Why are you weird and not noticing the title of the thread? The discussion was started in an attempt to compare the two game so it's natural to talk about both.

You weren't comparing anything, though, you were just stating what WoW has, not how it compares. But fair point, let's discuss.

What do you consider casual? What do you consider end game?

WoW's crafting was never time-consuming when I played (BC through Legion) outside of farming the Vanilla end game recipes and a few rare drop recipes from BC, Wrath, Cata, onward - There may have been reputation grinds gating access to some recipes (most of which no one cared about because gear from raiding was far superior again with the exception of ARR/BC) but I wouldn't have called them time consuming when it was 5 minutes to get the dailies done then you had the rest of the day to do other things. The actual crafting part of crafting was most definitely not time consuming. "Press the Create Button. Done."

In DF, for example, you get specialization points as a reward for weekly craft/gather quests, elite kills, dungeon clearing, etc. You don't need to have every last specialization mastered to get all recipes, but it's certainly quite a strain, if you just want to craft some things and be gone with it. For example, if you want every customization for your drakes, you need to get specialized in a specific category of calligraphy, and that takes a bit (not much, but eh) of farming. Which brings on the "it was 5 minutes to get the dailies done then you had the rest of the day" : that's not quick, then. If you could get a reputation to exalted in 4-5 hours, that would be quicker, to me. Instead, you have to take 5 minutes to do some random quest, every day, for 3-4 weeks. That's quicker in total time played, but if you miss a day, you can't catch up any other way than playing one more day and you will actually need a month of IRL time to get whatever your want. I'm not sure I convey what I mean properly, but my point is it's not accomodating to the user at all. Casuals are not people that play 30 minutes every day, they are people that play 30 minutes every day, OR people that play stress-free things for 8 hours. Catering to only one type of them is not catering to casuals. It's the same as for weekly locks, tbh, and that's why I don't like farming old WoW content much, despite playing a lot of it ever since DF (I've been an expansion-month/patch-week player from BFA)

Not certain why you bring up PvE as if it's something meaningless. No one is playing FFXIV because it has fantastic PvP. and Player versus Environment isn't limited to combat content.

No one is playing FFXIV for its PvP, but as I said, a lot of people are playing FFXIV for non PvE content. I can detail the list once more : island sanctuary, housing, gold saucer, crafting (which is another game in itself, opposite to wow, where you need to grind reputations, and that means do some sort of PvE), and more. None of those need you to kill any monster. Those are once more a specific type of casual players, but they do exist, and they are not a tiny minority. I'd estimate they are pretty much as important as midcore pve players, in terms of number.

So yeah, to answer your question of what I consider casual and endgame :

Casual is pretty much everything that you can do by yourself, that you can dive in for several hours at a time, or 5 minutes a day whenever you want. Basically, it's content that dropped in there, and are yours to do however you see fit.

Endgame is not "anti-casual", it's just "content that you can do once you're done with the main story". It refers to both casual and hardcore content. But hardcore, however, requires the player to have a group, and thus, a planning, some sort of rigor, and so on.