World of Warcraft died because the developers only catered to casuals and world prog

[DanielNegreanu_Adamantoise]

Wow still the most successful western mmo
When did it die?

[Wolf_Heartnet]

I think the biggest problem is that there is a perception of hard/grindy = fun and I don't believe that is true at all.

I think games that are accesible to everyone and bring in enjoyable features are fun and engaging. You start putting things that are too hard and too much of it and people will just not find it fun and leave. An example are mmos with open world PvP. Devs have come out and said that they don't want open world PvP in their game and that if they do, they would prefer to make completely seperate servers for it or bring in a flagging system because there are too many people that quit playing when they find out they arent as great as they think and/or get griefed and that player active count or sub count drops compared to non open-world pvp servers.

A game can have hard content but that should never be the main attraction. The fact that WoW got as succesful as they did was because of catering to casual.
WoW's downfall was the result of many bad practices and corporate greed. I also believe that Ion is contributing to its downfall aswell with his own bad decisions.
They fired many of their employees so CEO can claim record profits and get bonuses
Activision started pushing them to milk players for money with mobile games and other greedy features such as charging players to clone their characters from Vanilla wow to Burning Crusade
Catering to China despite all their human rights abuses and changing things in the game when all they really had to do was just edit the chinese version of the game instead of making those changes to all versions of the game.
Being unprofessional and bringing politics to the workplace and letting those devs unprofessionally attack those players like what they did with asmongold.

[HisShadowX]

Needless to say this caused the majority of staff at Bioware Austin including the Director to be fired after 2 million people instantly left and they implemented many casual features which they were slow to add to the point where you can be carried solo through any dungeon. Sadly the reputation of SWOTR never recovered.

Same thing happened with FFXIV which you can see the Documentary that Yoshi and many of the Square staff are in as they talk about how Tanka the Vile rebuffed everyone who wanted an easy game and the Hawaii shirt man (Former Director) also known as Nobuaki the insane made features the hardcore minority who prefers BDSM type of content where they must experience extreme pain and hardship and it punished anyone who played FFXIV 1.0 more then 5 hours a week and they could not progress any further but you could still delevel which pleased Tanka the Vile.

FINAL FANTASY XIV Documentary

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs0yQKI7Yw4 (Part 1)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoOI5R-6u8k (Part 2)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONT6fxiu9cw (Part 3)

Seriously, never make a game for the Hardcore Minority unless you do not mind it failing or not making any money.

[IdowhatIwant]

So this is where the Hardcore Minority doesn't comprehend the entire fanbase or understand the casuals or the majority of the people. Its sort of like how the hardcore minority doesn't understand why people don't like pain or BDSM. New Game + is there for people here for the story which is repeatable. Where literally you people get hung up on is, 'Where is the reward' or 'There is no reward and XP why would anyone play New Game+' its the way you people think like when your being whipped in a dungeon gaining pleasure from the pain. Most people don't see that as pleasure. For gaming your pleasure comes from 'the accomplishment' which is more akin to you all getting whipped and asking for more pain.

For the majority of people the story and the experience of replaying the story is the entire point. Of course you people will still get hung up over no experience or points or whatever, but that's not how most people think.

Of course I would be hung up on not getting experience points or rewards. Imagine playing through any FF game again where you are already max level and have the best gear in the game. That sounds terrible, but you are trying to tell me a majority of players like this and feel accomplishment from this? You sound like one of those people that believes everyone deserves a trophy.

So yea I believe this game needs more post game content over all. More options for gearing, and just more content in general for all players casual and hard core, and definately things that are repeatable as a large amount of the content the devs add becomes obsolete fairly quickly. It's possible we may be getting more of that we are getting some weird omega story, hildabrand story, 2 ultimate fights, criterion dungeons.

Now your whole thing about thing about hardcore minority, some people enjoy to play games that challenge them, and there is nothing wrong with that. Most games when there is a New Game + that is typically a challenge mode for people that want more from the game after completing it. In some cases it is just an easy mode to face roll through the game again as it is in FFXIV and there is nothing wrong with that either. But the expectation that everyone is to like New Game + being a face roll with no rewards, and if you don't then you are a hard core player that just wants rewards is just ignorant.

If anything I think it is a mistake on the devs end to not allow you to gain xp from NG+ as it would keep more expansions alive with that incentive as new players come into the game. Instead the answer to that was putting Trust systems through out each expansion. This is one of the major things that helped WoWs downfall was not keeping the new player experience intact and it can be a tricky thing to do as more expansions release. If you can't welcome your new players properly they will not stay.

[HisShadowX]

Of course I would be hung up on not getting experience points or rewards. Imagine playing through any FF game again where you are already max level and have the best gear in the game. That sounds terrible, but you are trying to tell me a majority of players like this and feel accomplishment from this? You sound like one of those people that believes everyone deserves a trophy.

So yea I believe this game needs more post game content over all. More options for gearing, and just more content in general for all players casual and hard core, and definately things that are repeatable as a large amount of the content the devs add becomes obsolete fairly quickly. It's possible we may be getting more of that we are getting some weird omega story, hildabrand story, 2 ultimate fights, criterion dungeons.

And this is why they cannot make games for you people. You all are out of touch with the world. The fact systems like New Game Plus and the way FFXIV is the way it is now instead of FFXIV 1.0 which had to be destoryed because again making games for you people does not make sense to the world.

Sadly, you people are never going to understand. I know it sucks the only content you people have is Eureka, The Bozjan Front, PVP, and Savage modes but if I were you I would be happy that made at least some zones for you people after FFXIV 1.0 had to be shut down because making games for you people do not make sense.

FFXI still exists, and I believe so does Everquest there are some companies still willing to make homes for you people.

[IdowhatIwant]

And this is why they cannot make games for you people. You all are out of touch with the world.

I think the feeling is mutual as you confuse this MMORPG with a single player JRPG.

Also 1.0 was not destroyed, it is the foundation of this game, and the cause of most of its mechanical issues and limitations.

[HisShadowX]

I think the feeling is mutual as you confuse this MMORPG with a single player JRPG.

But you do understand the shut down games made for you people, right? FFXIV 1.0 is completely destroyed and unplayable. Are you obvious to the fact games like this is either made or remade with people like you out of sight out of mind?

I don't mean it as an insult, but rather a reality. I know for example not to go and play Eve Online because its not made for people like me. I know not to go play Everquest and its clones because its not made for people like me.

[IdowhatIwant]

But you do understand the shut down games made for you people, right? FFXIV 1.0 is completely destroyed and unplayable. Are you obvious to the fact games like this is either made or remade with people like you out of sight out of mind?

I don't mean it as an insult, but rather a reality. I know for example not to go and play Eve Online because its not made for people like me. I know not to go play Everquest and its clones because its not made for people like me.

First of all, I am not sure who you mean by you people. Cause if you mean hardcore players I am far from that. I do savage cause I enjoy the challenge and typically have fun doing it. Does that mean it is for everyone? Not at all. Do I think there should be more content in a MMO for people that enjoy a challenge, absolutely but it should not be centralized on that. My feedback was "More options for gearing, and just more content in general for all players casual and hard core, and definytely things that are repeatable as a large amount of the content the devs add becomes obsolete fairly quickly." Now how you have pinned me into a certain group of individuals from that is beyond me.

Second of all I have never played FFXIV 1.0 except for alpha where I wrote a long letter about how terrible the game was and how it should not be released. Everquest was not a player friendly game, it was designed for a very niche group of people that enjoyed things more like dungeons and dragons, and the games difficulty and game play reflected that. There are other games like this as well, such as Neverwinter nights, Divinity, Baldurs Gate. That being said Everquest would be a game for people that enjoy story it has some hard mechanics such as dying and loosing all your equipment and running back to get your body but that was sadly a norm during this time. Same as FFXI this game had a very good plot as well but very old school mechanics that were just the norm at this time. I do not know if you are young and just do not understand video game history or demographics or are just ignorant as hell. I am leaning more towards ignorant though.

I think the big thing players need to ask, is what is FFXIV. If it is just the MSQ and a single player RPG than the subscription rate should be dropped and it should be released as such and stop producing content after the MSQ is complete. If it is an MMORPG, which is what it currently is, then it should have more post game content that does centralize on players grouping up to achieve a goal or accomplish a task.

[deadman1204]

I feel like this OP could've titled the thread "I'm bored and I wanna troll, so troll troll troll!"

[Mortex]

Yep. Prior to the release of the Cataclysm expansion, I created a detailed post on how and why the proposed changes would ultimately drive healers away from the game. Ghostcrawler told me to quit posting.

There was nothing in my post that was inflammatory or less than polite. GC just didn't like someone pointing out the flaws in his vision for the game.

Over time, that attitude grew. The devs didn't want input. They wanted everyone to fawn over their genius.

It got to the point where beta-testing was a farce. In interviews, Ion openly admitted he never read any of the reports from testers because "he didn't believe players could give meaningful feedback."

I hope Yoshi isn't falling into the same arrogant mindset.

But aren’t healer in final fantasy 14 even worse gameplay wise as the ones in wow ?. If you talk about changes that did kill healer then we should not forget final fantasy 14 healer design choices and as with wow they also ignore these voices and the same with a lot of other jobs. Like I give you the example lifeletter we’re healer player did ask if they could fights more heal challenging and the answer was “You can go play ultimate fights if you are bored”, like if they actually had a clue about healers then they know these fights we’re also done by a solo healer.

Wow greatest problem is that it doesn’t respect the time the player has and that they have no fluffing clue how too write good storylines.