How would you address Button Bloat on healers?

[rewd]

Similarities between Lillies and Addersgall:
-Both resources are generated over time and not even at the same rate

They dont even use the same heals (Gcd vs oGCD), the heals are not unlocked at similar levels nor have similar effects, they dont reward the player nor work for the mp economy of the job in the same way

Similarities between Aetherflow and Addersgall:
-Both are unlocked at lv45
-Both generate 3 stacks of the resource per minute
-Both are used for oGCD heals
-Both have said oGCDs that follow the same pattern of: 1s recast time st ogcd heal (unlocked at lv45), 45s recast time stronger ogcd st heal (unlocked at 62), 15s aoe 100 potency regen heal with mitigation with 30s recast (unlocked at 50 and gets upgraded at lv78), 30s recast aoe burst heal of 400 potency (unlocked at 52)
-Both have an action unlocked at lv74 with 90s cd that allow for one potential additional stack
-Both have mp restoration effects attached to them with similar values (20% vs 21% per minute)

Only difference between both systems is that sage gains it in a passive way and do not have ED leeching it.

The only "objective" things here is that lillies have much less in common with addersgall in how they work than aetherflow and that addersgall and aetherflow are the most identical core systems two jobs have in the game.

So they are different in many aspects (you also forgot MP generation, by the way), so they are similar but not "copy and paste".

I appreciated the essays on something another user said, I'm still unsure about where mental gymnastics and nitpicking is supposed to lead, though.

[WaxSw]

So they are different in many aspects (you also forgot MP generation, by the way), so they are similar but not "copy and paste".

I appreciated the essays on something another user said, I'm still unsure about where mental gymnastics and nitpicking is supposed to lead, though.

"Both have mp restoration effects attached to them with similar values (20% vs 21% per minute)" Did you even read my post?

You can't say that lillies work like addersgall when the only aspect they have in common is the passive generation and then have the balls to apply a double standard and claim to be objective saying addersgall and aetherflow are not when the "many aspects" that differentiate are only 2 things and one of them is irrelevant

Its not nitpicking nor mental gymnastics,is something plainly obvious to anyone who is minimally familiarized with the systems, they are as different as 2 copied exams where the only different thing is the name and 1 question out of 8

[Liam_Harper]

The only "objective" things here is that lillies have much less in common with addersgall in how they work than aetherflow and that addersgall and aetherflow are the most identical core systems two jobs have in the game.

The only reason Lilies aren't similar to Addersgall is that they're flat out worse in almost every way.

-Adders generates outside of combat and while dead. Lilies don't.
-Adders can be generated with an oGCD. Lilies can't.
-Adders abilities are unlocked earlier. WHM must wait 24 extra levels for their Ixochole.
-Adders grants access to 4 heals. Lilies only gets 2.
-Adders are free oGCD's. Lilies are GCDs with a potency loss.
-Adders restores 7% mana, Lilies save 4% you would have spent on Glare.
-Adders charges once per 20 sec. Lilies once per 30 sec.

The only advantage Rapture has is having no cooldown, while Ixo is 30 sec. That's it. Otherwise they're so much worse it's beyond a joke.

[Deceptus]

-Adders are free oGCD's. Lilies are GCDs with a potency loss.

Toxikon is a potency loss in most forms as well. Less than a Dosis in single target and a dps loss vs Dyskrasia when there are 3 ore more targets.

[Mimilu]

Toxikon is a potency loss in most forms as well. Less than a Dosis in single target and a dps loss vs Dyskrasia when there are 3 ore more targets.

Toxikon isn’t tied to Addersgall like Misery is tied to Lilies though, which is what the post you’re quoting is talking about.

[LeonKeyh]

For all jobs:

1. Create single target versions of any AoE abilities that don't already exist
2. Create AoE versions of any single target abilities that don't already exist (most of these things are already done)
3. Create an AoE stance, instant cast 1 second recast OGCD; If it is on, all of your abilities do AoE damage/healing; if it's off, all of your abilities do single target damage/healing.


It would clean up button bloat and help people learn their rotations better (because AoE rotation would just be the single target rotation with the "stance" on). Even things like Healer's DoTs would have an AoE version; in general, any sort of additional effect would remain similar, but they would just need to adjust potencies and %'s to balance it between single target and AoE. It would work fairly well for DPS/Tanks, but healers may be a little messy single target healing in dungeons while dealing AoE damage. I feel like most could make it work though.

Edit: Maybe having it only affect heals for healers is the way to go; Have damage remain as-is since there is a significantly lower number of damage abilities. Or, have a separate stance for Damage abilities and Healing abilities for healers.

[Renathras]

The best solutions from looking across jobs seem to be:

1) Abilities that upgrade into other abilities (e.g. Rage of Halone to Royal Authority, Stone 1 into Stone 2, etc),

2) Abilities that alter based on context (e.g. RDM's Veraero/thunder converting to Verholy/flare after completing the melee rotation; SCH's Summon Seraph converting into Consolation while she's out, etc),

3) Not useless buttons that don't make sense to have as a separate button (Consolation above, but also how AST has Crown Draw and Crown Play instead of just having Crown Draw turn into Crown Play while you have the card outstanding), and

4) Modifier abilities (e.g. Eucrasia, Emergency Tactics) that make one ability basically swap to another without requiring additional hotkeys.

I've long felt that Jobs shouldn't generally have more than 29 total buttons, including Role Actions. This allows for a controller player to have two crossbar sets (you can easily toggle tapping RB instead of having to press it several times to cycle or hold it and use the face buttons to select a specific Crossbar set, or do that tap and hold weirdness), and 29 actions is honestly quite a lot. That's one shy of THIRTY buttons, and leaves room for Sprint, LB, and Potion (or Mount wen not in Raids). Some Jobs have this (the entire Ranged category all easily clear this bar), but at least one of each ROLE really should.

That is, there can be a few Jobs with 40+ buttons, but they should be the exception, not the rule, and at least one of each role should not exceed around 29. For Tanks, there are several that are TANTALIZINGLY close, but I think only WAR falls under it or close enough to under it. With Healers, WHM and SGE both are one button over...but let's be honest, everyone can just drop Repose and go on with their lives. XD As much as I prefer playing SCH over WHM, it is nice that I can get all my buttons on my bars with WHM without having to sacrifice anything other than Repose.

[Renathras]

Edit: Maybe having it only affect heals for healers is the way to go; Have damage remain as-is since there is a significantly lower number of damage abilities. Or, have a separate stance for Damage abilities and Healing abilities for healers.

I saw a WHM suggestion a few weeks ago to make WHMs work like the final boss of Amdapor (the stone angel) where they could have some Eucrasia-like ability that converts their heals into damage like that boss does where she converts her "Cure X" into a damage spell. So using this ability than Cure 3 would make it into Holy, for example.