Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Deceptus]

It's the reason you see so many Medica II spamming 50% uptime healbots in Savage PF. They're just there for an easy ticket.

Fun Fact:

Thanks to the geniuses who came up with the numbers, in Endwalker Medica II has more total healing potency (1000 potency) than Cure II (800 potency) for the same cast time and the exact same mana with the added benefit of hitting multiple targets.

There is functionally zero reason to use Cure 2 over it outside of emergency situations where you need to spam Cure 2 to keep a tank from dying.

[ASkellington]

Fun Fact:

Thanks to the geniuses who came up with the numbers, in Endwalker Medica II has more total healing potency (1000 potency) than Cure II (800 potency) for the same cast time and the exact same mana with the added benefit of hitting multiple targets.

There is functionally zero reason to use Cure 2 over it outside of emergency situations where you need to spam Cure 2 to keep a tank from dying.

I am all for the idea of WHM being big heals (and damage) but why? For what purpos-

There's no point in me finishing that question is there?

[HyoMinPark]

It assumes I was not clear with my post. I’m mainly talking about Savage and Ultimate content. So any dungeon/trial examples don’t work on what I said.

When progging a harder fight, healers have to keep the fight going for as long as possible to see more mechanics. And I always go with the mentality that it is recoverable until we try everything and can’t go any further. This is easier said than done.

I clearly said, that if you have bad healers prepare for 50% of your wipes to be due to healer mistakes. Not that 50% of wipes are caused by all kind of healers.

Example: Healing too early or too late. This easily causes wipes in high end content. And plenty of them.

I disagree with the assessment that healer deaths are more impactful than a tank or DPS death. Even in Savage/Ultimate.

In terms of mechanics, so many Savage/Ultimate mechanics now rely on every member of the party to execute the mechanic. If any one of the party members screws up, it usually causes a wipe. Regardless of if they are a tank, healer, or DPS. That’s a party-wide responsibility. Not a healer-exclusive responsibility.

Even early progression is a party-wide responsibility—way more so than just a healer responsibility. You put emphasis on healers being the ones to carry and see mechanics—but it’s even more important that EVERY party member provides the applicable mitigation required to live mechanics/raidwides. It does not fall solely on the shoulders of the healers. Tank misses a Reprisal? Ranged DPS doesn’t use Samba? Caster missed Addle? At minimum item level/Week 1 prog, these are just as important as the healers using their mitigative tools.

Mitigation in general is a party-wide responsibility at this point. It doesn’t just fall on the healers alone. A lot of Savage and Ultimate raidwides require stacking mitigations to survive, which is not something a healer can fulfill alone.

I also have to ask you to provide an example where healing too early causes a wipe. I can think of several situations that can spiral from healing too late or missing a heal, but you are going to have to enlighten me at how healing too early is getting people killed. Perhaps it’s because it’s late and I’m tired, but I can’t think of a scenario right now where that would cause deaths.

[Yeol]

In general, healers do keep the fight going for longer but that responsibility isn't nearly enough to justify how pathetically lacking their kit is. Nor are they miles ahead in this capacity.

Still with all that said, I don't think healers should be this simple. I miss HW healers.

Not disagreeing here.

[Yeol]

Maybe this video explains what I'm trying to say better. I am not talking about 1 shot mechanics in Savage/Ultimate. The healer cannot do much in those situations. I'm talking about deaths that can be recoverable and wipes that can be avoided.

If you have a bad healer (which I did have twice in the past). Most of our wipes were due to the healer making wrong decisions and not healing properly. That was the time when I realized that healers actually have a responsibility that many tend to not see.

Maybe most people assume that this is common knowledge and that all healers should be capable of doing this. From personal experience, this is not as common as people think.

I've had my fair share of run to the wall wips because we couldn't recover from something that was recoverable.

You can blame the players that made the mistake in the first place, but mistakes can happen even after clearing content/while farming. At that point, you're at the mercy of your healers. If they can pull it off, good. You may be able to secure the run. If they can't, you'll only go as far as your healers allow you.

I also have to ask you to provide an example where healing too early causes a wipe.

Life’s Agonies/P3S. Most common recent one.

[grinkdaboy]

With all due respect, this is BS.

Here's a few examples of the top of my head:

A healer may have a co-healer- so a healer death may be a temporary glitch
A healer dies and the party includes a DPS with a raise - healer can get back up (not always, but it is possible)
a healer dies, tank and the party continues on their merry way - depending upon the dungeon, entirely possible

Tank dies, depending on the dungeon, group continues at a much slower pace

Further, much of what you said isn't even realistic. Healers can 'fix other people's mistakes" however only up until a certain point. If someone insists upon collecting too many stacks, they will die. I could also point to DR, if someone goes into that with the attitude that healers will fix their mistakes- it doesn't work that way- miss 2 avoidable mechanics (in normal mode) and you die.

Finally, throwing out that '50% of wipes deaths are due to healer mistakes" - where did you get that from? Because if it can't be backed up it doesn't really help your argument, and that is what got healers into this position.

there are quite a few mechanics in this raid tier that require both tanks to be alive for, off the top of my head there are tank tethers that have to be taken, and in p4s p2 there is bloodstake which targets 1st and 2nd aggro, and if a tank isn't one of them you will die like a dog

[HyoMinPark]

Life’s Agonies/P3S. Most common recent one.

Even this is a long shot example, in my opinion. Any healer on a Savage level isn’t going to try and heal Life’s Agony “too early” (outside of blind prog and seeing the mechanic for the first time). Assuming you don’t have an AST entirely deleting this mechanic with Macrocosmos, Life’s Agony takes quite a while to cast even after the four hits go off. If you have people die from that, that’s seriously just your healers failing to heal the mechanic period. Or mitigation is missing—which can be a healer’s fault or another player’s fault depending on your mitigation regimen you use for it.

Maybe this video explains what I'm trying to say better. I am not talking about 1 shot mechanics in Savage/Ultimate. The healer cannot do much in those situations. I'm talking about deaths that can be recoverable and wipes that can be avoided.

If you have a bad healer (which I did have twice in the past). Most of our wipes were due to the healer making wrong decisions and not healing properly. That was the time when I realized that healers actually have a responsibility that many tend to not see.

Maybe most people assume that this is common knowledge and that all healers should be capable of doing this. From personal experience, this is not as common as people think.

I've had my fair share of run to the wall wips because we couldn't recover from something that was recoverable.

You can blame the players that made the mistake in the first place, but mistakes can happen even after clearing content/while farming. At that point, you're at the mercy of your healers. If they can pull it off, good. You may be able to secure the run. If they can't, you'll only go as far as your healers allow you.

As for the rest of this, I don’t really see how this video is backing up your statement of “healer deaths are more punishing than a tank/DPS death” or that healers have inherently more responsibility than another role. At a high level, all roles have equal responsibility when it comes to successfully clearing.

As for walling fights that are recoverable—there are times where it’s far better to just reset than try to struggle bus through an encounter with weakness, brink of deaths, or impacted resources. And this could go for any player’s death: not just a healer’s.

[ForteNightshade]

Maybe this video explains what I'm trying to say better. I am not talking about 1 shot mechanics in Savage/Ultimate. The healer cannot do much in those situations. I'm talking about deaths that can be recoverable and wipes that can be avoided.

If you have a bad healer (which I did have twice in the past). Most of our wipes were due to the healer making wrong decisions and not healing properly. That was the time when I realized that healers actually have a responsibility that many tend to not see.

Maybe most people assume that this is common knowledge and that all healers should be capable of doing this. From personal experience, this is not as common as people think.

Momo's video does not really corroborate your argument though. While yes, healers are the backbone in the general sense. He isn't elevating their role or responsibility above that of tank or even DPS. You're insinuating that a healer death essentially makes most runs unrecoverable, thus putting the bulk of responsibility onto them when that simply isn't the case. I outlined two specific of examples where a tank death is far worse than a healer death.

I've had my fair share of run to the wall wips because we couldn't recover from something that was recoverable.

You can blame the players that made the mistake in the first place, but mistakes can happen even after clearing content/while farming. At that point, you're at the mercy of your healers. If they can pull it off, good. You may be able to secure the run. If they can't, you'll only go as far as your healers allow you.

Let's be blunt. A good portion of players running to the wall when the fight's still recoverable are doing so to save their parse. They'd rather redo say, first Intemperance, then accept a run with a party wide damage down as it hurts their log.

Even without the parser mentality, sometimes it either isn't worth struggle bussing through—especially a minute or so into the fight.

Life’s Agonies/P3S. Most common recent one.

I... don't quite follow? Why are you healing Life's Agony before the fourth hit? I suppose if you're attempting to time a healer as it hit, but that really isn't necessary.

[Deceptus]

I am all for the idea of WHM being big heals (and damage) but why? For what purpos-

There's no point in me finishing that question is there?

I really couldn't believe it when I saw it, but here we are. It's a pretty basic oversight that shows just how disconnected whoever designed healers is from reality.

Medica II v Cure II, the 10 potency "buff" traits to aoe spells, SGE weaker shields overriding stronger SCH shields. . . etc etc etc

[IDontPetLalas]

Maybe this video explains what I'm trying to say better. I am not talking about 1 shot mechanics in Savage/Ultimate. The healer cannot do much in those situations. I'm talking about deaths that can be recoverable and wipes that can be avoided.

If you have a bad healer (which I did have twice in the past). Most of our wipes were due to the healer making wrong decisions and not healing properly. That was the time when I realized that healers actually have a responsibility that many tend to not see.

Maybe most people assume that this is common knowledge and that all healers should be capable of doing this. From personal experience, this is not as common as people think.

I've had my fair share of run to the wall wips because we couldn't recover from something that was recoverable.

You can blame the players that made the mistake in the first place, but mistakes can happen even after clearing content/while farming. At that point, you're at the mercy of your healers. If they can pull it off, good. You may be able to secure the run. If they can't, you'll only go as far as your healers allow you.



Life’s Agonies/P3S. Most common recent one.

I don't understand what linking that video proves- incidentally it's one of my favourite healer videos- those are part of the core concepts that shouldn't be a surprise to healer mains, not by level 90 and certainly not to anyone who is doing savage or ultimate content.

You then say that you had a bad healer - twice? I guess that most people would count themselves lucky. However, anyone can get tired or have a bad day, healers are no exception, so sure- they could make a bad decision and that could end up poorly. However, as other people have pointed out , in that specific content, in some cases no one can make a mistake.

Further, to the point that "you're at the mercy of your healers'- well, as a healer there are many cases when I am at the mercy of the tank, and you don't need to look at the more difficult content either to see that. We can all think of times when a tank has taken out a whole party with a cleave because some mob or boss wasn't well positioned, or aimed a TB at one or more people.

I could go on, but i think you get the point that tanks carry a lot more responsibility that people credit them for, and good tanks just perform many things well almost automatically.