Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[IDontPetLalas]

Exactly this. As I said earlier in this thread, Healer is the job with the most responsibility in a group. In MSQ content, tanks can basically just turn on their stance and hit random buttons and will hold aggro and be okay.. as long as the healer keeps them alive. DPS can essentially hit random buttons and the fight will just take longer.. as long as the healer fixes their mistakes. Healers need to keep everyone alive for the expected damage as well as the unexpected damage, keeping an eye on the Vuln Stack collectors and the few things that actually do still need to be cleansed, while still trying to put out whatever DPS they can... or the entire group dies (and they probably get the blame for it). There just isn't much of a chance that healing in MSQ content will get much harder overall otherwise, well, pretty much no one would opt to be a healer.

Now, should "Expert" dungeons be at least a little harder for healers than MSQ dungeons? Sure. Should 8 mans actually require at least some healing attention from both healers? Sure. Should EX's (and potentially Savages in some cases) be harder still? Sure.
Should 8 mans be soloable by an on level player of any job? Absolutely not.

It's much better to look at ways for Healing jobs to be made more engaging outside of the healing component of their role. This will not only positively impact playing a healer in all content in the game, easy or otherwise, but it's much, much, much more likely to actually be considered by the developers than "Just make everything harder so healers have to heal more."

Few points - this concept of healers is the job with the most responsibility? No, this is what got us into this situation in the first place, along with this attitude of the "DPS can essentially hit random buttons and the fight will just take longer.. as long as the healer fixes their mistakes".

All, roles have responsibility. If you start to dissect them and labelling them as , well, this role has more , or that role has more, then you start have issues such has healing anxiety, tanxiety, etc. You start saying that can't find a healer or a tank. you start having developers talking about "well we need to make this role accessible"

However that is completely different from the discussion around difficulty/challenge, and yes, I don't think anyone disagree that as someone progresses from normal content to expert , savage and ultimate each job and role is expected to have more knowledge and be able to optimize. Irrespective of the degree of difficulty, the role should be engaging.

[SeverianLyonesse]

Few points - this concept of healers is the job with the most responsibility? No, this is what got us into this situation in the first place, along with this attitude of the "DPS can essentially hit random buttons and the fight will just take longer.. as long as the healer fixes their mistakes".

All, roles have responsibility. If you start to dissect them and labelling them as , well, this role has more , or that role has more, then you start have issues such has healing anxiety, tanxiety, etc. You start saying that can't find a healer or a tank. you start having developers talking about "well we need to make this role accessible"

However that is completely different from the discussion around difficulty/challenge, and yes, I don't think anyone disagree that as someone progresses from normal content to expert , savage and ultimate each job and role is expected to have more knowledge and be able to optimize. Irrespective of the degree of difficulty, the role should be engaging.

I agree with this, but I also don't think StriderShinryu is necessarily wrong...just that they are described the paradigm that, as you said, got us into this mess.

It's just really difficult to fairly and transparently allocate party responsibility when you have, on one side of the spectrum, something with a strict and obvious pass/fail indicator like keeping players alive, and on the other side of a spectrum, something where players are heavily discouraged from discussing any measure of DPS numbers. I don't think it is fair at all, but it is also just easier to blame healers because players are inherently given more data to point fingers at than bad DPS players (this is also why even mediocre tanks can fly under the radar without popping mitigation, because most DPS don't pay attention to the preventative measures, they just pay attention to whether the group wipes).

And I don't really know how to make it better, because the healers are just kind of the de facto scapegoat that allows the game to be so casual-friendly and "non-toxic." We overcompensate so that players can do practically no damage. And in many cases a lot of those players don't even know they aren't doing enough damage. And they can't know because then we would have DPS-shaming. But boy do I wish I at least had a personal DPS meter so I could at least keep track of my own performance, because I still am never very certain of my tank DPS, at least using the game's native tools.

[IDontPetLalas]

I agree with this, but I also don't think StriderShinryu is necessarily wrong...just that they are described the paradigm that, as you said, got us into this mess.

It's just really difficult to fairly and transparently allocate party responsibility when you have, on one side of the spectrum, something with a strict and obvious pass/fail indicator like keeping players alive, and on the other side of a spectrum, something where players are heavily discouraged from discussing any measure of DPS numbers. I don't think it is fair at all, but it is also just easier to blame healers because players are inherently given more data to point fingers at than bad DPS players (this is also why even mediocre tanks can fly under the radar without popping mitigation, because most DPS don't pay attention to the preventative measures, they just pay attention to whether the group wipes).

And I don't really know how to make it better, because the healers are just kind of the de facto scapegoat that allows the game to be so casual-friendly and "non-toxic." We overcompensate so that players can do practically no damage. And in many cases a lot of those players don't even know they aren't doing enough damage. And they can't know because then we would have DPS-shaming. But boy do I wish I at least had a personal DPS meter so I could at least keep track of my own performance, because I still am never very certain of my tank DPS, at least using the game's native tools.

some of my comments (not all) will not apply to those people who play with a static and/or usually interested in savage and more difficult content and know what they're doing, however-

1- we already have buff and debuff indicators- so there is no escaping or arguing with vulnerability stacks, who is using (for example) tank stance, or mitigation, or shroud, or any number or DPS enhancements.
2- we can already see who gets aoe heals, and who is does not, usually because they are never in in range
3- We can already tell if something is taking an abnormally long time to die, usually because some CD is up again..and again..and again.

None of the above require some that which can not be named measurement meter. it is in the UI (not that I am against personal use of said meter, the contratry0 .

Blaming healers is both laziness and scapegoating, due to many factors, whether you want to point to long-kept historic stereotyping of healer roles, or SE insisting on their particular healer design.

[Ixon]

I was writing a longer response, but forget it, it boils down to "I'm not sure if you have even bothered to read his response".

the threads that were quoted while helpful aren't even ALL of the threads that have been made over the years asking for changes, but I feel that you won't be convinced no matter how many links get posted.

Not sure what you're talking about, as I am agreeing with the posts. You SHOULD be bringing it up every chance you get. You SHOULD beat the dead horse till it rises from the grave and gives you the change you want. Simply pointing out that there are a lot of other communities in the game that also feel ignored, but that doesn't mean you stop trying.

[AngeliouxRein]

Out of curiosity, what does everyone think the adjustments will be for healers based on the live letter?

[QooEr]

Out of curiosity, what does everyone think the adjustments will be for healers based on the live letter?

potency adjustments. probably something meaningless like "we made cure ii cost 900 mp to help your mp economy guys ☺️"

[BaconBits]

Out of curiosity, what does everyone think the adjustments will be for healers based on the live letter?

I expect nothing other than potency adjustments at best.

[SeverianLyonesse]

some of my comments (not all) will not apply to those people who play with a static and/or usually interested in savage and more difficult content and know what they're doing, however-

1- we already have buff and debuff indicators- so there is no escaping or arguing with vulnerability stacks, who is using (for example) tank stance, or mitigation, or shroud, or any number or DPS enhancements.
2- we can already see who gets aoe heals, and who is does not, usually because they are never in in range
3- We can already tell if something is taking an abnormally long time to die, usually because some CD is up again..and again..and again.

None of the above require some that which can not be named measurement meter. it is in the UI (not that I am against personal use of said meter, the contratry0 .

Blaming healers is both laziness and scapegoating, due to many factors, whether you want to point to long-kept historic stereotyping of healer roles, or SE insisting on their particular healer design.

I agree that we have these indicators. I also agree that blaming healers is lazy scapegoating.

I am just observing that the average player does not keep an eye for any of these things. Buff/debuff indicators have several thresholds of accessibility: (1) size, (2) legibility, (3) numerosity, (4) variety, (5) understanding typically limited to understanding of the specific job or enemy. And a DPS who doesn't stay close for heals or do their rotation right will generally never realize they are the problem without being called out on it. And this is why they scapegoat the healer. Because staying alive or wiping is one of the most basic things that they will be able to pay attention to.

I don't like it. But that is what we have, because there isn't a good system in place to encourage DPS (and to some extent tanks) to introspect on their own abilities. And again, I think that may be the way the game is intentionally designed: healers and tanks are given an excess of abilities to keep the party progressing, so that casual DPS players can have a lot of leeway "having fun." It's why Yoshi-P wants a DPS every expansion, but doesn't want players to be judging anyone on their DPS: the "casual DPS" is what keeps the game popular and selling well. We are the babysitters.

But just because we are babysitters doesn't mean we have to settle for spamming our basic spell 100 times. If Action-DPS is the way the game is going, we damn well deserve some attack rotations.

[Liam_Harper]

Out of curiosity, what does everyone think the adjustments will be for healers based on the live letter?

A mana reduction cost to Medica II or Cure II, along with the usual tweak to SCH that no one asked for and literally nothing else.

[Deceptus]

potency adjustments. probably something meaningless like "we made cure ii cost 900 mp to help your mp economy guys ☺️"

Which is funny because after the lvl 85 Healing Potency trait buff, right now Medica 2 is the exact same cast time as Cure II, the exact same MP cost as Cure II. . . AND MORE TOTAL POTENCY ON EVERY TARGET IT HITS.

Medica II: 1000 total Potency. Cure II: 800 Potency.

Medica II is better than Cure II on a potency basis in every way. You can't make this up. . . This is a prime example of why people say the devs have no idea how healers actually play or how they interact.

A mana reduction cost to Medica II or Cure II, along with the usual tweak to SCH that no one asked for and literally nothing else.

I wouldn't mind if Lustrate got the Taurochole treatment and reduced the target's damage taken.