Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Aravell]

Doesn't seem like I'm included in that "everyone" category. Doesn't seem like many others are either. I would love if the game were designed for everyone. That's what is being asked for here: job design that doesn't have to be too hard, but offers room for skill expression and dynamic gameplay.

You know which expansion was actually made for everyone? Stormblood.

For content, dungeons were still simple back then, alliance raids were a little bit harder, normal raids were decent, savage had some difficult floors, and they introduced ultimate for the first time. Also there's eureka for the people who enjoyed that.

Then the jobs, all of them had a skill ceiling, all of them had something to strive for. We also had a nice spectrum of difficulty from RDM to MCH.

That's a game made to include everyone, not whatever we're getting in DT, which looks like EW 2.0.

[ty_taurus]

That's a game made to include everyone, not whatever we're getting in DT, which looks like EW 2.0.

*Shadowbringers 3.0

[Rozeee]

SE is trying to make this game for everybody

Encounter-focused design is just the natural logical conclusion from the game separating the playerbase so rigidly like this. Player X can only do content until ex., player Y can do content until Savage, etc. This system only works until we get to the shared factor which is the job itself. This is honestly one of the main sources of conflict within the playerbase. With that being said, I am utterly confused on why the solution isn't to make the playerbase separate itself by the job they can play, but instead make the jobs so simple and so lacking in differences that job selection hardly matters.

It's not as if people struggled getting through the MSQ in Stormblood or even Heavensward, so who was the changes for? High-end players didn't mind optimizing the jobs, casuals wouldn't care that much about maximizing their performance. Is it for people who just didn't want to put in the effort yet still feel entitled enough to play every job at a high level? More difficult and punishing mechanics isn't even fun. I still have fun trying to keep melee uptime for the last boss in Dead Ends (the part where Ra-La prances). Could I say the same for my 5th time doing Pangenesis?

I would even go as far as to say, jobs being this simple detracts my enjoyment of the encounters itself. I think Living Liquid in TEA is a well-designed phase that still holds up today (as a healer), but my kit is so aggresively unfun that I can't even appreciate that design, just wondering when I can finally be done with this so I don't have to press 1 anymore.

[Moqi]

I am utterly confused on why the solution isn't to make the playerbase separate itself by the job they can play, but instead make the jobs so simple and so lacking in differences that job selection hardly matters.

Because SE refuses to unlock glamour and people want the aesthetic of a job without wanting to learn how to play it. And I'm being 100% serious with this.

And the thing is, we HAD systems to make jobs more difficult for players who wanted to push themselves in harder content but weren't mandatory for casual content like cleric stance, tank stances and positionals... and they took them away.

[Somnolence]

...

It is interesting that this design shift after Stormblood is very clear in Deep Dungeon design. PotD/HoH mobs on higher floors hurt even with their autos (and some are way too spooky to fight for non-tanks) yet they are mechanically simple. This design forces jobs to use all their kit including ranged slows/roots when soloing.

Meanwhile in EO mobs don't hurt much but mechanics are overall more complicated and have lots of one-shots.

[Supersnow845]

It is interesting that this design shift after Stormblood is very clear in Deep Dungeon design. PotD/HoH mobs on higher floors hurt even with their autos (and some are way too spooky to fight for non-tanks) yet they are mechanically simple. This design forces jobs to use all their kit including ranged slows/roots when soloing.

Meanwhile in EO mobs don't hurt much but mechanics are overall more complicated and have lots of one-shots.

That’s because the deep dungeon design has shifted over time to actively encourage solo runs

Palace on launch was widely considered to be unsoloable to the point that when it was cleared the devs actually went “oh wow we weren’t expecting that” then they had to retroactively add a title for the achievement

Even to this day with power creep necromancer is still a nightmare because of the void floors being designed around a light party

These days comparatively EO is designed around the solo challenge so they remove things like forced kiting with constant potions up to avoid auto damage and substitute for complex mechanics they expect you to remember

Your point is still totally correct though, it is a microcosm of the design shift of the game but deep dungeons so have specific interesting reasons why they do it

[Zadood]

Because SE refuses to unlock glamour and people want the aesthetic of a job without wanting to learn how to play it. And I'm being 100% serious with this.

And the thing is, we HAD systems to make jobs more difficult for players who wanted to push themselves in harder content but weren't mandatory for casual content like cleric stance, tank stances and positionals... and they took them away.

Holy moly, you does raise a good point.

But then, this claim doesn't really hold up, as you are pretty much suggesting that DRK did reduce the number of bad SAM player due DRK can glam like a bonafide SAM, with skill action animation also somewhat matched a SAM's at that.

Which... highly unlikely, but at the same I lacked data, evident and proof to back it

[Maltothoris]

It is funny about the deep dungeons cause potd is still the harder one cause it keeps constant pressure on people and this coming from someone who cleared all 3 solo, 2 as war and 1 as mch.

[Somnolence]

Your point is still totally correct though, it is a microcosm of the design shift of the game but deep dungeons so have specific interesting reasons why they do it

I dislike shift from damage mitigation to mechanics since mechanic failures are binary and role agnostic. This is also the criticism for TOP and why no-healer challenge was possible at all - not enough role specific mechs/responsibilities.

Softening trinity requirements but leaving old trinity kit for healer is the reason we have this situation.

8-man content can be solo-healed by single healer with current bloated kits, potencies on skills are enough for this, primary reason this is not done is because it concentrates point of failure and without coordination MP and GCD efficiency is a concern. But it is ironic how solo-heal challenge is the only way for healers to play the job as befitting the role fantasy.

[Saraide]

Softening trinity requirements but leaving old trinity kit for healer is the reason we have this situation.

To me this is the core of the problem. I'd rather have SE decide on one approach: go all in on the trinity or ditch it entirely. The current half measured approach just gives us the worst of both worlds.