Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[ty_taurus]

It's easier to do also when the DoT is only double the potency of a single filler spell.

Now if it was 3x, 4x, or 5x that dot would be MUCH more impactful if you missed it.

True, but in order to miss a DOT, you need to not apply it for its entire durations worth of time. If you miss the timing by 1 GCD, you only lose one tic, rather than the entire potency’s worth unlike your basic attack spell which you lose 100% of every time you don’t cast anything to move or cast a GCD heal instead.

[Valence]

On the matter of boring jobs and getting asleep, maybe I've just had a consistently bad and biased horrible experience with SNM mains in statics, but 90% of them have always been the source of most of the raid stupid wipes or wipes on random early mechanics because they either:

1) fell asleep on the job constantly
2) were actually of a very different skill level to the group and only got there because carried by their job

Shout-out to the only SMN player I've had in EW that was an actually great player, you managed to make me put a disclaimer there to avoid making a fully blanket statement. Either way, this is the perfect illustration in my mind of the slippery slope of braindead jobs in current XIV's era.

I completely agree, and what makes it even more frustrating is that there are so many easy solutions to absolving the heavy pressure on the healer to always survive. Something I’ve been saying for years has been to make Phoenix Downs usable in combat, stackable so you can hold more than one at a time, and handed to the player as rewards for doing roulettes and quests. Give them a cast time, and a cool down independent of other items like potions, and then if we feel they are too strong for raiding, make Phoenix Downs unusable in high-end duties. Basically, it’s a function that works the same as silence echo. Once a duty is removed from the high-end category, then Phoenix Downs can be used.

Now, anyone can revive. The cast time makes it suboptimal if your healer is alive, but if they fall, you can revive them. Red Mage still benefits from repeated instant raising, and if we want summoner to retain some form of raise utility, remove Resurrection and give Carbuncle a raise on a long cooldown, or make Enkindle during Phoenix’s summon time able to target and revive fallen party members with the regen. Powerful, yet heavily restricted by timing. Or just leave it as-is and let it benefit from a potential swiftcast as the main advantage over Phoenix Downs. I can understand that the value of a raise can be a sensitive balance topic, and im not partial to any specific solution. I’m unbothered by them getting a powerful, yet restrictive raise, or not.

I personally tend to take the diametrically opposed view because I'm RPG old school. I don't want phoenix downs to make raising even more of an afterthought, even in casual content, and I want mistakes to come with their lot of punishment. If a sprout healer fails, and the party wipes, then, we go at it again. I don't have a problem with that, I like helping new people go through things, and I'd rather have them feel proud of finally overcoming a hurdle instead of feeling cheated because the difficulty has been lowered or someone used a bypass for their mistake. And make the TOS and actual GMs double down on toxic dregs that would harass people for failing.

If healing has too much weight on who on the party has all the onus of preventing wipes, then perhaps the other roles have been way too neutered too in that department. Yes, this includes DPS and party resources. We used to have more wipes back then not due to supports, but actually DPS, because their damage output was so bad that everybody ran out of resources. I want that back, but i'm part of a minority of lunatics, or so I'm told.

It was a mid ShB change if I remember

Medica 2 had twice the length but half the potency per tick so it took like 7 seconds for medica 2 to exceed medica 1 in potency, that was why medica 1 existed, because you put up medica 2 then spammed medica 1

Now you are basically never punished for just spamming medica 2

Now you just spamm OGCD or damage neutral (lily) heals tbh.

But yes, and back then medica 1 also had the benefit of costing a lot less MP, when resource management was still a thing.

[ty_taurus]

I personally tend to take the diametrically opposed view because I'm RPG old school. I don't want phoenix downs to make raising even more of an afterthought, even in casual content, and I want mistakes to come with their lot of punishment. If a sprout healer fails, and the party wipes, then, we go at it again. I don't have a problem with that, I like helping new people go through things, and I'd rather have them feel proud of finally overcoming a hurdle instead of feeling cheated because the difficulty has been lowered or someone used a bypass for their mistake. And make the TOS and actual GMs double down on toxic dregs that would harass people for failing.

If healing has too much weight on who on the party has all the onus of preventing wipes, then perhaps the other roles have been way too neutered too in that department. Yes, this includes DPS and party resources. We used to have more wipes back then not due to supports, but actually DPS, because their damage output was so bad that everybody ran out of resources. I want that back, but i'm part of a minority of lunatics, or so I'm told.

Wouldn’t it make more sense then to just removing revives altogether? If anyone fails, the party wipes. If only the healer can provide the party with endless resets, then there’s a lot of social pressure on them to be executing everything correctly. The DPS and even the tank can make as many mistakes as they want, but the healer can’t afford to do so. I think it’s important to empower each role with responsibility that only they can perform, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that one of those responsibilities is to never make a mistake when everyone else is allowed to. Either let the healers be allowed to make mistakes, or don’t allow anyone to make mistakes.

And I don’t think having to revive a player absolves their mistakes of consequence anyway. There are more consequences than just failure.

[Maltothoris]

It was a mid ShB change if I remember

Medica 2 had twice the length but half the potency per tick so it took like 7 seconds for medica 2 to exceed medica 1 in potency, that was why medica 1 existed, because you put up medica 2 then spammed medica 1

Now you are basically never punished for just spamming medica 2

Actually it was like how it was in SHB in ARR 2.0 but was changed to the 30 second duration because if I remember what Sebazy said, it was that the first iteration lead to the whm getting a huge amount of aggro back then. Once they made the tank stances without the damage penalty happen and increasing the amount of aggro it could generate, they reverted it back to the 15 seconds on Shadowbringer release.

[Aravell]

Wouldn’t it make more sense then to just removing revives altogether? If anyone fails, the party wipes. If only the healer can provide the party with endless resets, then there’s a lot of social pressure on them to be executing everything correctly. The DPS and even the tank can make as many mistakes as they want, but the healer can’t afford to do so. I think it’s important to empower each role with responsibility that only they can perform, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that one of those responsibilities is to never make a mistake when everyone else is allowed to. Either let the healers be allowed to make mistakes, or don’t allow anyone to make mistakes.

And I don’t think having to revive a player absolves their mistakes of consequence anyway. There are more consequences than just failure.

Having progged savage+ with no caster raise, the pressure on the shield healer is quite immense. While the regen healer can die (just not often), the shield healer is required to play perfectly because any mistake from them is an instant wipe due to weakness shields.

That said, while I think it's fine for other roles to have a limited raise, I think tanks in particular should have more limits. Like tying the phoenix down CD with tank invuln CDs, so tanks can't just invuln to cheese a mechanic and then raise a healer.

[ty_taurus]

Having progged savage+ with no caster raise, the pressure on the shield healer is quite immense. While the regen healer can die (just not often), the shield healer is required to play perfectly because any mistake from them is an instant wipe due to weakness shields.

That said, while I think it's fine for other roles to have a limited raise, I think tanks in particular should have more limits. Like tying the phoenix down CD with tank invuln CDs, so tanks can't just invuln to cheese a mechanic and then raise a healer.

You could also place more limits on the action of using a Pheonix Down in general. For example, you need to be standing next to your fallen party member. They have a range of 3 yalms rather than 30 yalms, basically.

[Valence]

Wouldn’t it make more sense then to just removing revives altogether? If anyone fails, the party wipes. If only the healer can provide the party with endless resets, then there’s a lot of social pressure on them to be executing everything correctly. The DPS and even the tank can make as many mistakes as they want, but the healer can’t afford to do so. I think it’s important to empower each role with responsibility that only they can perform, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that one of those responsibilities is to never make a mistake when everyone else is allowed to. Either let the healers be allowed to make mistakes, or don’t allow anyone to make mistakes.

And I don’t think having to revive a player absolves their mistakes of consequence anyway. There are more consequences than just failure.

That's fair, but having played through criterion with everybody having a one use raise, I can safely say that I hated that garbage. No idea what solution I could find satisfying though.

Perhaps raise being a universal action with an insane resource cost... owait, not every class uses MP or TP those days. duh.

Edit: yeah maybe those solutions with a 3y range, long cast, potentially shared cooldowns with tank invulns, etc.

[IDontPetLalas]

Wouldn’t it make more sense then to just removing revives altogether? If anyone fails, the party wipes. If only the healer can provide the party with endless resets, then there’s a lot of social pressure on them to be executing everything correctly. The DPS and even the tank can make as many mistakes as they want, but the healer can’t afford to do so. I think it’s important to empower each role with responsibility that only they can perform, but I don’t think it’s fair to say that one of those responsibilities is to never make a mistake when everyone else is allowed to. Either let the healers be allowed to make mistakes, or don’t allow anyone to make mistakes.

And I don’t think having to revive a player absolves their mistakes of consequence anyway. There are more consequences than just failure.

One of the first things that surprised me in this game is that healers don't have a self-raise. I agree very much with what Valence said and with what you said. I want each role to have responsibilities, I don't mind if raises stay the way we are now, and if that means that parties wipe- so be it, failure can happen. Same if DPS is low.

However, in at least one game that I played, I could place a self-raise on myself before entering a dungeon so that if I floor-tanked, I could self-raise. It had a longish CD, so it couldn't be spammed, but if necessary it could typically used twice in a dungeon if it was used before entering. It alleviated some of the pressure.

[ty_taurus]

One of the first things that surprised me in this game is that healers don't have a self-raise. I agree very much with what Valence said and with what you said. I want each role to have responsibilities, I don't mind if raises stay the way we are now, and if that means that parties wipe- so be it, failure can happen. Same if DPS is low.

However, in at least one game that I played, I could place a self-raise on myself before entering a dungeon so that if I floor-tanked, I could self-raise. It had a longish CD, so it couldn't be spammed, but if necessary it could typically used twice in a dungeon if it was used before entering. It alleviated some of the pressure.

For me, it's more like... I feel that healers having this added pressure is a poison that results in healers having a "complexity tax" in the same way that other jobs have things like mobility tax, utility tax, and so on. Physical ranged DPS have low DPS because they can attack from anywhere without cast times. Healers have low complexity because there is an inherent pressure on them to always do mechanics correctly or risk getting KOed and starving the rest of the team of their sustain, which traditionally results in certain doom of the party if they cannot finish the fight before they take more damage than they can otherwise withstand. So from the designer's perspective, making the healers easier to perform makes them less likely to make mistakes or more likely to pay attention to a fight's mechanics.

And taxes like that aren't a bad thing in general, but the FFXIV designers don't seem to understand the concept of restraint when it comes to taxes. Every tax is so unnecessarily steep, far beyond what any job deserves in contrast to what it's being taxed on. Like I think Red Mage's raise is a really great piece of utility that can potentially save a part a lot of time saving a run from failure, and that is worth a tax on DPS, but not to a scale of nearly 2000 DPS.

So I for one would gladly take whatever consequences come with unleashing the utility of Phoenix Downs if that means healers can have their complexity tax significantly lifted.

[ASkellington]

For me, it's more like... I feel that healers having this added pressure is a poison that results in healers having a "complexity tax" in the same way that other jobs have things like mobility tax, utility tax, and so on. Physical ranged DPS have low DPS because they can attack from anywhere without cast times. Healers have low complexity because there is an inherent pressure on them to always do mechanics correctly or risk getting KOed and starving the rest of the team of their sustain, which traditionally results in certain doom of the party if they cannot finish the fight before they take more damage than they can otherwise withstand. So from the designer's perspective, making the healers easier to perform makes them less likely to make mistakes or more likely to pay attention to a fight's mechanics.

And taxes like that aren't a bad thing in general, but the FFXIV designers don't seem to understand the concept of restraint when it comes to taxes. Every tax is so unnecessarily steep, far beyond what any job deserves in contrast to what it's being taxed on. Like I think Red Mage's raise is a really great piece of utility that can potentially save a part a lot of time saving a run from failure, and that is worth a tax on DPS, but not to a scale of nearly 2000 DPS.

So I for one would gladly take whatever consequences come with unleashing the utility of Phoenix Downs if that means healers can have their complexity tax significantly lifted.

That's wishful thinking. We have the trust system as a way to make it so people can continue the story without being bogged down by terrible teammates. I don't see the dev team making more complicated non-MSQ dungeons (if Variant/Criterion is that stamp a big fat failure on them and discontinue the waste of spaces), harder EXs, alliance raids or even savage raids where tanks and healers get to shine over glorified fight dances that wipe the party and we can't recover from except from beginning from the start, and I sure as hells don't see giving everyone a raise no matter how limited is going to fix it.

In fact, I see more raises FURTHER making the healing role more obsolete. So no. I don't want it.