Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Souljacker]

The players honestly got what they asked for. They wanted Healers to do DPS, gave SE an 'out' so to speak from designing content that requires consistent, sustained, and burst healing, and now everyone and their grandmother gives the side eye if your WHM isn't in a constant state of spin.

I don't blame Yoshi-P for more or less throwing his hands in the air and telling people to go do the ONLY content he could get away with making healing requirements actual REQUIREMENTS.

Y'all keep asking for DPS to make healing engaging, when that's not really the point of a healer to begin with. What did you expect?

[Sunhwapark]

The players honestly got what they asked for. They wanted Healers to do DPS, gave SE an 'out' so to speak from designing content that requires consistent

Idk, wasn't there a thing about whether or not healer dps is actually needed in savage+ anyway, and the answer was supposedly 'no' but mathematically didn't make sense ? edit: (for dps checks/enrages i meant to specify)
I can't remember the specifics, but I do remember it being a dispute about sylphie healers in those kinds of content.

Problem with that is that this often messes up planning for mechanics. If you have a mechanic that always targets two healers but then only have one, then you'll have a random DPS be targeted instead. People would generally prefer to just have two healers then have to deal with RNG in their mechanics.

Was going to say the same, but in addition to that - Log chasers will usually go for the standard team composition if possible, since that one site displays 2t/h + 4dps clears by default when looking at profiles. In PF at the very least, they'd usually opt to do a very particular uptime based strategy that tends to be quite different from the 'commonly known strat'.

What's interesting is I'd go so far as to say that "chad healing" has become more prominent than ever before in Shadowbringers and Endwalker. How can that be?

I agree with this. In Shadowbringers savage encounters it was really easy to let AST players do the majority of healing because it cost them essentially nothing in terms of offensive capabilities. It wasn't the same however when a SCH is paired with WHM, more like a competition of how far can we get before we are forced to GCD heal because using their healing tools was a DPS loss (outside of entire boss downtime). I suppose now that they did eventually make it so that using lilies resulted in neutral dps, Scholar's now the only one with 'opportunity cost' tied to their kit still.

In EW, SCH is the only one that didn't get an extra AOE healing skill (Pneuma,Macrocosmos,Lilybell) and instead got another 10% mitigation tool, it still has damage contention due to the interaction with Aetherflow as resource, as opposed to sage where there isn't a thing to consider.
If that kind of trend continues where AST/WHM/SGE get another instant free-cost healing skill, it's only going to push this kind of "chad healer" thing even further where SCH just becomes a Broil spamming 2 minute Chain Stratagem bot.

Unfortunately, I'm not expecting anything to change much in the new expansion - as much as I'd want more engaging gameplay in lower end content.

[Absurdity]

It’s almost like the presence of of “chad healing” where one player leaves the healing responsibilities to the other healer is caused by the person who plays the game and not the design of the job itself.

And then you have funky AST logs where they have 99th percentile dps and also 95th percentile healing.

Idk, wasn't there a thing about whether or not healer dps is actually needed in savage+ anyway, and the answer was supposedly 'no' but mathematically didn't make sense ? edit: (for dps checks/enrages i meant to specify)
I can't remember the specifics, but I do remember it being a dispute about sylphie healers in those kinds of content.

It's an old statement by CBU3 that they don't make savage dps checks with healer dps in mind that regularly gets brought up by people who just want to cure bot, but some more recent week 1 checks have been mathematically impossible without healer dps. Iirc E8S was one of those but don't quote me on that. And of course P8S is notorious for it's tight week 1 dps check.

[Sebazy]

Idk, wasn't there a thing about whether or not healer dps is actually needed in savage+ anyway, and the answer was supposedly 'no' but mathematically didn't make sense ? edit: (for dps checks/enrages i meant to specify)
I can't remember the specifics, but I do remember it being a dispute about sylphie healers in those kinds of content.

'It depends' was the fairest answer really.

Week one with a good but not exceptional group? You probably needed healer DPS.
E8S? You almost certainly needed healer DPS.

If you went into the tier months later with tome gear then you were more likely to be able to get away with less healer damage but having a pair of 0 DPS healers would still likely make things far harder on the rest of the group.

The players honestly got what they asked for. They wanted Healers to do DPS, gave SE an 'out' so to speak from designing content that requires consistent, sustained, and burst healing, and now everyone and their grandmother gives the side eye if your WHM isn't in a constant state of spin.

People give WHMs the side eye if they aren't spinning because said WHM's haven't been resource constrained for over 6 years now. Any job standing around doing nothing is going to raise eyebrows, this isn't a healer specific thing.

Think about it for a moment:

Healers have WAY more resources than they did back in 2.0-3.4
Healers have WAY more instant healing potency on tap than they did back in 2.0-3.4
Healers have WAY less risk associated with tapping into their DPS than they did back in 2.0-3.4

Meanwhile fights have gotten WAY slower thanks to bosses routinely standing around doing nothing whilst casting the next puzzle mechanic.
Not to mention that incoming damage is generally more consistent and predictable thanks to both a lack of crits from bosses as well as the general disappearance of insta cast non telegraphed mini secondary busters that used to be commonplace.

I don't blame Yoshi-P for more or less throwing his hands in the air and telling people to go do the ONLY content he could get away with making healing requirements actual REQUIREMENTS.

Which shows how little he understands healing in his own game given that it really boils down to mitigation requirements rather than healing requirements. Something which isn't fully in the hands of said healers anymore.

Y'all keep asking for DPS to make healing engaging, when that's not really the point of a healer to begin with. What did you expect?

Compelling gameplay.

I'm a diehard healer main at heart, I ranked top 10 worldwide for Gordias, HPS, I want to heal, healing is what I've always done in any MMO or indeed other game that supports that style of play. When a current 24 man has me wanting to alt F4 in boredom because there's nothing to heal and nothing else to do in the meantime that isn't literally pounding the life out of my 6 key on my keyboard (Yep, the RGB on my glare key has failed).

Give me healing, give me actual buff/debuff gameplay, I'll take anything that isn't endlessly smashing this stupid button endlessly for however long the duty happens to last.

[Absurdity]

I don't blame Yoshi-P for more or less throwing his hands in the air and telling people to go do the ONLY content he could get away with making healing requirements actual REQUIREMENTS.

That's the thing though, even ultimate has laughable healing requirements. As Sebazy has already said, it is all about mitigation. Which shows a fundamental lack of understanding from the devs.

[ty_taurus]

TOP being cleared without healers may not be a normal expectation of the fight, nor is it something that would become popularized amongst clear parties, but simply the fact that it's even possible speaks to how shallow healing requirements are in that Ultimate, and it's not like the other Ultimates are all that more intense on healers either.

[Souljacker]

Give me healing, give me actual buff/debuff gameplay, I'll take anything that isn't endlessly smashing this stupid button endlessly for however long the duty happens to last.

This is probably the first time I've actually seen someone ask for the right thing. All I've seen is folks asking for more DPS buttons to press during 'downtime' when they really should be asking for less healing downtime. Some folks in this very thread have it in their signatures, ffs. Go play a DPS class.

But, that's the majority of the playerbase - they want to DPS; it's easier than being actually responsible for keeping people alive outside of them staying themselves out of bad. Nevermind keeping them cleansed and buffed - I can't remember the last time I actually had to use an esuna. We don't even get haste.

How did that phrase go? If the Tank dies it's the healer's fault. If the healer dies it's the tank's fault. If DPS die it's their own damn fault.

There's something fundamentally wrong with the whole design the devs have adopted.

[ASkellington]

This is probably the first time I've actually seen someone ask for the right thing. All I've seen is folks asking for more DPS buttons to press during 'downtime' when they really should be asking for less healing downtime. Some folks in this very thread have it in their signatures, ffs. Go play a DPS class.

I'm sick and tired of saying this every single time someone brings this up since its clear they haven't actually looked at the healing issues in depth:

We asked for increased healing requirements BACK IN SHADOWBRINGERS.

The dev team has YET to deliver and Dawntrail drops in June.

Let that sink in for a moment.

Y'wanna know what else we asked for?

We asked for AST cards to go back to being 6 different effects.
We asked for a RETURN of dps and buffs/debuffs we lost GOING INTO Shadowbringers.
We asked for SCH to get Selene back.
And we asked for SGE to BE the heal by dps healer.

We got NONE OF THAT with only AST POSSIBLY getting something come the rework.

We asked for YEARS. And the dev team straight up said NO to increased healing requirements because it would be too much for new healers.

Well if you aren't going to increase the healing to where my kit would be worth a damn, prune the healing kit and give me SOMETHING TO DO IN MY DOWN TIME.

That is what we are asking for. Healing is boring and the dev team is too lazy to fix it. Don't wanna fix it? Fine. FIX MY BORING DPS THEN.

[Aravell]

TOP being cleared without healers may not be a normal expectation of the fight, nor is it something that would become popularized amongst clear parties, but simply the fact that it's even possible speaks to how shallow healing requirements are in that Ultimate, and it's not like the other Ultimates are all that more intense on healers either.

To be fair, DSR does have some pretty hefty healing required in certain parts of the fight, as do the other ultimates. TOP seems to be the only outlier where the damage does not overkill you if you do the mechanic right, so you just scrape by with mitigation/shields.

[ty_taurus]

To be fair, DSR does have some pretty hefty healing required in certain parts of the fight, as do the other ultimates. TOP seems to be the only outlier where the damage does not overkill you if you do the mechanic right, so you just scrape by with mitigation/shields.

Right, but I just mean, you're not really that far off from the expected healing. Like at the end of the day, Ultimate difficulty isn't really making the act of healing any more aggressive than what we're otherwise used to even in the fights that haven't been cleared healerless.