Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Mortex]

But most people aren't spending 24 min in a fight. It's usually half that. 10-12m

3 drains amounts to a single extra broil cast every minute.

woo hoo /s

Energy Drain

5.78% dmg and used 35

yeah so p12s phase 2 gives you 35 energy drains cast that amount to 5,78 % dmg for sch and in total 390.3 dps. Its 33 % of the entire Biolysis dmg. Like if you say stuff like this i see you dont check logs for like 5 mins before posting this in a arguement is just super hilarious.

[Grizzlpaw]

Playing PvP Sage has shown that they don't have to bloat healers with any additonal buttons. The real problem with healers isn't that they have only 1 DPS button. It's that they have multiple DPS buttons with extremely long cooldowns, so they do very little to break up the monotony.

Simply bringing the cooldown down on buttons like Phlegma from 60 to 15 seconds does wonders. As does giving Toxicron the charges that refresh without the need to break a shield (perhaps this can simply refresh a charge instead).


If WHM got significantly more blood lillies and a proc to reset the cooldown on assize that would go a long way. While button bloat doesn't bother me, I understand people don't like it, so perhaps we can take a look at how frequently our existing buttons are pressed instead of how many buttons we have access to.

[AmiableApkallu]

Playing PvP Sage has shown that they don't have to bloat healers with any additonal buttons. The real problem with healers isn't that they have only 1 DPS button. It's that they have multiple DPS buttons with extremely long cooldowns, so they do very little to break up the monotony.

Simply bringing the cooldown down on buttons like Phlegma from 60 to 15 seconds does wonders. As does giving Toxicron the charges that refresh without the need to break a shield (perhaps this can simply refresh a charge instead).


If WHM got significantly more blood lillies and a proc to reset the cooldown on assize that would go a long way. While button bloat doesn't bother me, I understand people don't like it, so perhaps we can take a look at how frequently our existing buttons are pressed instead of how many buttons we have access to.

Giving me more frequent opportunities to press utterly forgettable buttons like Phlegma and Afflatus Misery changes nothing.

The actual issue is that there's no meaningful interactivity within healer damage kits, which is devastating when encounters are on strict, predictable timelines. PvP gets away with as few buttons as it has because those few buttons are in service of interacting with utterly unpredictable players.

[Supersnow845]

Energy Drain

5.78% dmg and used 35

yeah so p12s phase 2 gives you 35 energy drains cast that amount to 5,78 % dmg for sch and in total 390.3 dps. Its 33 % of the entire Biolysis dmg. Like if you say stuff like this i see you dont check logs for like 5 mins before posting this in a arguement is just super hilarious.

I’m still trying to figure out your argument though, ED is a factor in SCH’s damage, it’s not a big one, of SCH’s 4 methods of applying damage it’s by far the one the that contributes the least

Sure a gold parsing SCH is going to char their cohealer for ED casts but even a high green/low blue SCH is going to ED roughly half or so of their aetherflow and that’s fine because ED is designed as a dumping mechanic for excess aetherflow, chadding your co-healer causing deaths just shows you are a bad SCH, it doesn’t mean the skill itself is flawed

If you removed ED not only would you make SCH and SGE near identical in execution (as much as they are in skill design currently) you’d also send SCH’s HPS through the roof which we don’t really need

ED isn’t the problem here, SGE is

[Aravell]

I really don't see why people always view Energy Drain as a problem. You know what the actual problem is? The fact that every other healer is loaded with absolutely free healing.

A run where a healer chads their cohealer and does the absolute minimum should not be able to result in a clear, a single healer should not be able to basically soloheal the hardest content in the game, that's the biggest issue here.

Every healer should be forced to depend on their cohealer to shore up their weaknesses. If one decides to chad the other, it should always result in a wipe.

[Cpt_hater]

His point is that your statement "SCH’s buttons are better in just about every circumstance" is true only in controlled and artificial situations -- in fully optimised parsing groups

"Higher damage" is:
- when your cohealer becomes your personal healbot, ruining their own dps for you
- when every other person in your group knows what they're doing and how to optimise their cooldowns

^ something that will almost never happen in PF
He gave you the proofs which you didn't bother (or are unable) to read

Question: if scholar is better than sage in every way then why in pink/golden scholar's parses the job itself forces its cohealer to become a literal slave? Meanwhile sage is on par or even better than their cohealer in healing terms in the same pink/golden parses

As for the "better utilities": the fights are specifically designed and are pretty clearable without them. The fights are designed and are clearable with "worse shields"

[Mortex]

I’m still trying to figure out your argument though, ED is a factor in SCH’s damage, it’s not a big one, of SCH’s 4 methods of applying damage it’s by far the one the that contributes the least

Sure a gold parsing SCH is going to char their cohealer for ED casts but even a high green/low blue SCH is going to ED roughly half or so of their aetherflow and that’s fine because ED is designed as a dumping mechanic for excess aetherflow, chadding your co-healer causing deaths just shows you are a bad SCH, it doesn’t mean the skill itself is flawed

If you removed ED not only would you make SCH and SGE near identical in execution (as much as they are in skill design currently) you’d also send SCH’s HPS through the roof which we don’t really need

ED isn’t the problem here, SGE is

About the energy drain usage I took like 3 mins and watched again some logs. And for example p10s best world sch does 36 energy drains while a log 83 person did 14. It’s funny how it’s not hard to actual see how energy drain influence scholars dmg if some one actual uses the mathematical proof people give us for free and take some time using it.


I can agree that ed is a cool idea but the problem is that 1: it’s only on one healer and we all know when there is the option for spending it on a dmg button in comparison to a heal button you wanna press the dmg option more then the heals.

2: ed as interesting as it is as a ability is still a toxic ability for a healer job. It only serving grace is 100 potency while back then at least it was a mana gain tool.

[Mortex]

I really don't see why people always view Energy Drain as a problem. You know what the actual problem is? The fact that every other healer is loaded with absolutely free healing.

A run where a healer chads their cohealer and does the absolute minimum should not be able to result in a clear, a single healer should not be able to basically soloheal the hardest content in the game, that's the biggest issue here.

Every healer should be forced to depend on their cohealer to shore up their weaknesses. If one decides to chad the other, it should always result in a wipe.

Because in a vacuum it is like actual having logs were the co healer becomes the heal bot for the sch and his parse because he can use all stacks for energy drain is pretty much a good proof that ED is the problem. Because this isn’t happening in any other healer parse. Like I said the ability idea is cool the problem is that it’s on a healer. Imagine whm Lily’s had a dmg spell. Or Astro could change off heals into dmg ones. Or sgn could use stacks for 100 more potency on 1 Dosis cast per Stack.

People would actual die way more in any fight because people would use these tools for dmg and not healing.

I argue even the free healing isn’t the problem( because at the end of the day we would swap just glare for medica casts) I argue the problem is that almost all healer dmg kits are barebones and sch having the only one that gives the choice healing for dmg or vice versa. Every other healer doesn’t face this dilemma. I remember old whm we’re Lily’s we’re a dmg lose so almost no one used them except for rare cases.

Easy solution is making healer dps kits way more interactive with the healing kit.

[Supersnow845]

About the energy drain usage I took like 3 mins and watched again some logs. And for example p10s best world sch does 36 energy drains while a log 83 person did 14. It’s funny how it’s not hard to actual see how energy drain influence scholars dmg if some one actual uses the mathematical proof people give us for free and take some time using it.


I can agree that ed is a cool idea but the problem is that 1: it’s only on one healer and we all know when there is the option for spending it on a dmg button in comparison to a heal button you wanna press the dmg option more then the heals.

2: ed as interesting as it is as a ability is still a toxic ability for a healer job. It only serving grace is 100 potency while back then at least it was a mana gain tool.

Yes and that difference of energy drain is not much about 3% of the SCH’s total damage, that still doesn’t remotely affect my point

SCH is a thoroughly good healer even without ED’s damage, it’s an optimisation mechanism that would break SCH if it got deleted, you seem to be talking out of both sides of your mouth, it’s this mammoth thing that is destroying SCH’s balance but it is also inconsequential depending on what point you are making

[Aravell]

People would actual die way more in any fight because people would use these tools for dmg and not healing

And what's wrong with that? The hardest content in the game should very much stress your resources to the point that you can't just burn everything on damage. If you die because you ED when you should've Indom, so what? You learned something new, do better next time.

You say free healing isn't the problem and insist that SCH's choice is the problem, but absent of thie choice, every job will put out absurd healing power. The right move is to tax every job for healing, not remove the tax on the one job thats designed well.

All the free healing is precisely why all the other healers can be "chadded" in the first place. If a WHM/AST/SGE can fully heal the entire fight without losing any damage, then why would anyone care that the SCH isn't healing? Back in SB, after the AST buffs, they could soloheal savage too, it was regarded as bad design back then, but now everyone is just absolutely spoiled by free healing that they think losing damage to heal is bad design.