Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[ty_taurus]

I’m not even necessarily discussing the fact that it wouldn’t make sense from a gameplay perspective, I mean from an actual in game lore perspective. Like how can the WOL be the most powerful person in the world if they literally can’t do damage

The idea that healers are also accomplished damage casters makes lore sense

*Cut to A-Ruhn-Senna threatening to blast away a Garlean ambush with a tornado*

Also, White Mages literally fought in the War of the Magi, and they sure as hell didn't hold their ground by curing each other until the Black Mages got bored and went home. Lore and gameplay are different beasts, but good game design can maintain a balanced gameplay experience without creating a ludonarrative dissonance.

[Niroken]

I’m not even necessarily discussing the fact that it wouldn’t make sense from a gameplay perspective, I mean from an actual in game lore perspective. Like how can the WOL be the most powerful person in the world if they literally can’t do damage

The idea that healers are also accomplished damage casters makes lore sense

Also the fact that White Mages fought on equal footing against Black Mages to a draw.

[ForsakenRoe]

*Cut to A-Ruhn-Senna threatening to blast away a Garlean ambush with a tornado*

Also, White Mages literally fought in the War of the Magi, and they sure as hell didn't hold their ground by curing each other until the Black Mages got bored and went home. Lore and gameplay are different beasts, but good game design can maintain a balanced gameplay experience without creating a ludonarrative dissonance.

Something something 'entreat the Elementals for aid, allowing the White Mage to both mend using the healing power the Elementals bestow, and maim with the fury of the natural elements of Earth, Wind and Water.

cost: 50 gauge'

Can we get a CD on WHM where we entreat the Elementals to dissolve the enemy into a pile of leaves because of the Greenwrath? It's lore compliant, honest

[OliviaLugria]

It's in the other thread:

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...20#post6420720

[Maltothoris]

Here was just some other stuff just to keep this thread alive https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...-Event-5-19%29 This being the one that is infamous for the healer dps not taken into account for the raids back then.

Then we have this one right here when it came to making Protect give both the physical and magic defense and lower stoneskin's percent from 18 to 10. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...808-18-2015%29

[Grizzlpaw]

One of the first thing the WoL learns in the CNJ quest is that Healers do more than heal. That questline literally drills into your head that healers are also meant to DPS.

[Deceptus]

Here was just some other stuff just to keep this thread alive https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...-Event-5-19%29 This being the one that is infamous for the healer dps not taken into account for the raids back then.

Then we have this one right here when it came to making Protect give both the physical and magic defense and lower stoneskin's percent from 18 to 10. https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...808-18-2015%29

And then stoneskin was re-packaged as Divine Benison and given back to WHM at a later level. Also done with Divine Seal.

Stuff like that just highlights how creatively bankrupt the job design team is.

[Colt47]

if the idea is that healers are supposed to do more damage because they get a rotation, then you're barking up the wrong tree because that isn't how they are making healers. If someone wants their job have more actions during slow periods besides a one button attack, I can understand that. But having a healer suddenly do dps of a tank because of it makes zero sense and would result in them becoming something they aren't intended to be.

[ty_taurus]

Here was just some other stuff just to keep this thread alive https://www.bluegartr.com/threads/12...-Event-5-19%29 This being the one that is infamous for the healer dps not taken into account for the raids back then.

See, I think that response is very peculiar, even when considering the landscape from back then.

"For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set."

Why is an assumed item level being considered when fights have a minimum required item level? Why wouldn't that minimum item level be the same as this assumed general item level? I would think these would be one in the same, but apparently that isn't so...

"Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development."

My understanding of why a minimum item level exists would be to establish a bare minimum entry point of which the party can complete a fight based on the expected experience the designers had when testing that fight's difficulty. In other words, that combined DPS of Tank and DPS players minus 10-15%. Yet apparently, the playtested range is above the established minimum item level, which is completely strange to me. Doesn't that make it very easy to potentially make a clear literally impossible with certain comps at minimum item level? Like what happened during P8S... Was that why?

"So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible."

Yoshi P, you did create an environment in which healers need to be DPSing, because as stated, the clear would've "otherwise been impossible" at certain item level thresholds. It may not be required with a high enough average item level for the team, but as far as what the fight's minimum item level has established, you as a healer may be required to contribute DPS or your party cannot clear, and thus a player should go in expecting that responsibility in case their teams item level isn't high enough to clear without the support of healers.

[ty_taurus]

if the idea is that healers are supposed to do more damage because they get a rotation, then you're barking up the wrong tree because that isn't how they are making healers. If someone wants their job have more actions during slow periods besides a one button attack, I can understand that. But having a healer suddenly do dps of a tank because of it makes zero sense and would result in them becoming something they aren't intended to be.

Then it's a good thing that is not the idea, nor has that ever been the idea suggested by any player.