Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[GaiusDrakon]

5.X, you potato, not 6.X.

You know, when SMN had a 2 min cyclic rotation with various oGCDs and you had to ensure you had 4 Ruin IVs for Bahamut and spam other stuff like Addle in there because it counted as an "attack" and would trigger another Wyrmwave? When you had to strategically delay DWT/FBT by ~5 sec to keep things aligned and you played around Tri-Disaster refreshing your buffs AND DWT/FBT refreshing IT so you only had to hardcast Bio/Miasma once per 2 minutes? Where you had both Bane and Fester, where you had 8 total Egi-Assaults in a 2 minute time frame and used those to generate Ruin IVs, and you avoided overcapping THOSE while ensuring you had 4 of them for Bahamut, which was a separate button from DWT, and where you used the other Ruin IVs and Egi-Assaults in your cycle for movement uptime?

SMN was considered comparable or even harder than BLM at the time, which is why it doing about as much damage as BLM while having a Raise WASN'T seen as a huge problem since most people understood that the high difficulty meant that SMNs weren't often doing that full damage and IF THEY WERE, they were good enough they deserved it.

lmao okay I played SMN in TEA. It wasn't harder than BLM.

you're literally so confidently incorrect and misinformed it's not even funny

To the ew babies reading this let me correct his misinfo.

• 2 minute cyclic rotation
  Bruh unless you're doing BJ/CC where you have to care about maintaining dots on two targets it's literally r3 spam and you use your egi assaults and ruin 4 to weave in shit. 50 Ruin IIIs isn't a "2 minute rotation".
• delay dwt/fbt
  common sense? "oh no let me use dwt/fbt right as my dot is about to fall off" good job. literally the only decision made here is to watch your dot and use dwt/fbt as it's about to fall off. ironically you didn't talk about top SMN gameplay which is to RUSH DWT/FBT when appropriate
• only had to hardcast Bio/Miasma once per 2 minutes
  which is pretty much free? in what world did people struggle with this?
• avoided overcapping
  you have 30 SECONDS to dump a ruin 4 if you're about to overcap. yes it's harder for a new smn to not have enough ruin 4 for bahamut but literally who struggles with overcapping
• movement uptime
  let me move by using an instant cast on a caster. wow, so big brained

Here is why SMN can actually be hard:

1. dwt/fbt rushes:
depending on kill time and phase timings, it can be optimal to rush dwt/fbt and even abort early with deathflare.
2. 2-target decision making
bj/cc and e6s can be hard, especially bj/cc, because of the necessity of casting miasma manually more often which can sometimes intersect with required movement; also trade-offs between bane and hardcasted dots
3. ifrit micros
moving ifrits can lead to some gains in ifrit autos
4. ghosting
bahamut and phoenix can ghost, making precise and specific movement necessary for optimality during dwt/fbt. i found that sometimes very specific stutter-movements to get bahamut to lock in and use akh morn before running ahead is necessary, which made smn one of the only jobs at the time where your movement was important. bahamut can still ghost right now btw lol

and none of this was harder than 5.x BLM which had transpose lines.

Go ahead, question my "game-know-how" again as you say something absurd again.

I know you think I upvote my own comments or something when I don't. Anything to help you cope that you aren't at the level where you understand this game well. But go ahead lol, feel free to say

Just because you don't actually know the game's history or mechanics doesn't mean we're all as ignorant.

to me again once you cleared a solo deep dungeon, got a t100 during a PvP season, clear Ultimates on patch and Savages week 1 on every single role at least once, get 99s, clear Baldesion, clear Delubrum Savage, breed a pedigree 9 chocobo, craft for world first teams, etc.

it's honestly funny how you're butting heads against so many ultimate clearers in this thread and won't let go.

[Palladiamors]

Summoners asked for something for years and the eventual change removed 80% of the job. We were then told by people who admitted that they had not played it that it was fun now and to get over it.

Point is, be careful what you wish for.

[Shurrikhan]

Summoners asked for something for years and the eventual change removed 80% of the job. We were then told by people who admitted that they had not played it that it was fun now and to get over it.

Point is, be careful what you wish for.

Can't exactly blame the playerbase for asking for A, B, and C and getting D and Z instead. That comes down primarily to prideful cherry-picking and defensive misconstrue-ment by the devs and their (likely errant) estimations of their "silent majority" (those who... did not do any actual asking in the first place).

[ForsakenRoe]

My answer to this, for a while, has been "We have 4 Healer Jobs, we should make them different so they appeal to different types of players."

Misshapen Chair did a video a few months back where his conclusion was basically "Leave WHM alone for people that like healing now, give SGE its SB kit back, give AST Nocturnal stance back and its SB cards back, and make SGE into a galaxy brain DPS rotation thing and see if people embrace it or not; and everyone can play the one they want and not demand to be 'rewarded' with more damage, as 'having fun and not being bored' is your reward, so shut up about a measly 2% DPS difference".

...he was a bit more vulgar, mind you, but I pretty much agree. Here's the video: https://youtu.be/sbWubxOTUWU?t=672
"Healing In FFXIV Is Not Fun"

Right around that timestamp. The whole video's worth a watch, too.

Since this came up, I'll reiterate a discussion/argument me and Ren had about this topic. It went through three different metaphors. Essentially, Ren's position (and Chair in the video, I guess) is that, suppose every healer is equivalent to the meat in a curry. WHM is Chicken Korma, SGE is Prawn Makhani, SCH is Lamb Bhuna, AST is Beef Vindaloo. So everyone has a spiciness they are comfortable with, right? But what if I really like Chicken, but I find Korma bland and boring because there's no spice? Why do I have to be told 'lmao idiot if you want spice go eat another kind of meat', I want chicken

On the flip side, my position was this: if every healer was meat in a curry, then the game should offer a range of spicyness levels of curry for each meat. SO WHM is Chicken, yes, but the curry house offers Korma, Tikka Masala, Madras,, Jalfrezi, Vindaloo. And then the same for the other meats. It'd be up to the player how much they want to optimize, same as how on a MNK for example, you can get by with the standard rotation. Or you can do Double Solar opener to optimize a bit. Or you can lock your framerate (???) to gain DPS (no idea how that works)

Then Ren gave up because the meat analogy was not working, and moved onto comparing the healers to FPS games. WHM is Halo, SGE is Titanfall, SCH is COD, AST is Battlefield, or such. Except again, WHM was 'Halo on easy mode', AST was 'Battlefield on (whatever the hardest mode is)', etc. Whereas I would prefer to see all the games have a variety of difficulty options, so that if someone LOVES Halo, but gets too good at it because it's easy mode, they can move up to Normal or Hard, rather than being told 'Oh you want a harder challenge, go play COD or Battlefield'. Maybe they don't like grounded FPS games or the war aesthetic of those games

Suffice to say, we did not come to an agreement. Me wanting WHM to have the potential to be a mild relaxed experience or a super spicy curry (depending on what the player is seeking from the class) was interpreted as 'then the casuals HAVE to make use of the full optimization suite', implying like every RPR in EX is doing double communio or every RDM is delaying melee combos into their manafication/embolden

[AlereRaeder]

If the developers want to give Tank and DPS "+ Healing potencies" on their kit at least give Healers, of all skill levels, something new to play with. We'll wait................................... 2/3 expansions later........... any day now.

I'm sure the recent no healer TOP clear was feasible because of the changes to Divine Veil, PLD, and Shake it Off. but what did Healers get during all of these changes? Nothing. Why are tanks healing while doing their optimal dps rotations, and when they press their party mits? Why is the %overheal average (35%-50%) so damn high in every fight in the game? Tanks are tanks, so why are they outputting so much Healing?

• Give healers interesting DPS utilities and attack variance.
• Give healers a stance that removes cast time and lowers their damage for some uptime flavor like AST's Lightspeed. Slidecasting is goofy as hell -> #cleric_stance_rework_number_15
• Give healers a proc (a chance for an ability to be used) like DNCs feathers. Or some ammunition like old SMN's Ruin IVs.
• Give healers a proc that increases cast time occassionally.
• Give healers damage when they press their healing abilities. Damage on abilities like Protraction/Divine Benison/Krasis/Exaltation for example.
• Give healers a PVP 1 button combo button. Freshen it up.
• Give healers control over healing.
• Give healers their identity back. Stone/Air back to whitemage, time back to astrologian, shadowflare/bane/energy drain/selene back to scholar, make icarus dive a button to press on sage.
• Give healers an actual 6th role action. Do people even know Repose exists?
• Give healers detrimental effects to their AoE in dungeons like WHM Holy Stuns. Give Slow to AST, Blind to SCH, Paralysis to SGE.
• Bring back Aero3 type spells (or dont).
• Why are barrier healer's Druochole and Lustrate healing raw hp? They could give shield for the health they would've healed. Look now you can use Emergency Tactics/Pepsis in a different way.

There's a whole list that can be made for interesting healer things. But still no changes to healers since heavensward/stormblood. Congrats to the team who cleared without healers, that was very optimal.

[ForsakenRoe]

I once suggested making Repose also apply a 5-10% damage down effect to enemies for 10s. The bosses would be immune to the sleep, but not to the damage down portion, making it an 'in case of emergency because the melee misclicked Feint earlier' tool, and an extra way for WHM to mitigate (because they don't exactly have much mit going for them atm). It would be balanced because you wouldn't be keeping this up at all times, it'd cost so much damage to do so. But it'd see use in week 1 clears where everything hits like a truck

[Coatl]

I once suggested making Repose also apply a 5-10% damage down effect to enemies for 10s. The bosses would be immune to the sleep, but not to the damage down portion, making it an 'in case of emergency because the melee misclicked Feint earlier' tool, and an extra way for WHM to mitigate (because they don't exactly have much mit going for them atm). It would be balanced because you wouldn't be keeping this up at all times, it'd cost so much damage to do so. But it'd see use in week 1 clears where everything hits like a truck

It was kinda already in the game in the form of Rage of halone/storms path/siphon. They reduced the dmg the boss dealt but they were not the optimal combo to use for damage.

They removed it because I don't think they really want you to make relevant decisions like this in fights anymore.

[RyuDragnier]

Summoners asked for something for years and the eventual change removed 80% of the job. We were then told by people who admitted that they had not played it that it was fun now and to get over it.

Point is, be careful what you wish for.

I liked old SMN (ARR-SB), like current SMN...I just hope they give it more complexity in 7.0, because as of right now it's a bit too easy.

[ZephyrMenodora]

I liked old SMN (ARR-SB), like current SMN...I just hope they give it more complexity in 7.0, because as of right now it's a bit too easy.

Summoner was always my primary DPS since ARR but I like the current version best. Old summoner really felt like a hodge-podge of unrelated concepts that made no sense and culminated in it being irritating to play for most people. Now I see summoners all over the place.

Curious how it's developed for 7.0 though.

[grinkdaboy]

old smn felt like a bootleg version of affliction warlock from wow, i dont exactly mourn its passing