Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Aravell]

Healers want something to do, tanks want to be self-sufficient, and DPS don't want to die. Seems like a net win.

I honestly don't mind if tanks are reasonably self-sufficient, but it's an increasingly growing issue that tanks can also heal the party. It's reasonable that a tank doesn't want to fully rely on the healer to survive tankbusters and such, it's completely unreasonable for a tank to also be capable of healing the party because that spits in the face of the trinity.

[Absimiliard]

I honestly don't mind if tanks are reasonably self-sufficient, but it's an increasingly growing issue that tanks can also heal the party. It's reasonable that a tank doesn't want to fully rely on the healer to survive tankbusters and such, it's completely unreasonable for a tank to also be capable of healing the party because that spits in the face of the trinity.

In fairness, the trinity is kinda done to death at this point. A lot of games are moving away from it. Heck, even WoW has been gradually moving away from it by making tanks and DPS increasingly capable of supporting themselves and others. Anyway, I think a limited amount of party healing is fine. They just shouldn't be able to spam it.

And that heal on Shake it Off? Wtf was even the point of adding that? WAR was the last job they needed to add more healing to. I for one thoroughly enjoy WAR in its present state, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why that particular change seemed a good idea.

[Deceptus]

it's completely unreasonable for a tank to also be capable of healing the party because that spits in the face of the trinity. be able to fully solo an 8 man boss while the content is current

FTFY

I think this is fair. I don't play healers but I am interpreting this to mean you want some sort of mechanic (ie BLM Enochian or Reaper Enshroud) to spice up the rotation of WHM? On the other hand I would say I'm sure the devs are hesitant to give healers too much to do as it could actually get in the way of healing. So they would need to tread carefully as such.

A lot of healers have accepted the fact that CBU3 refuses to give us decent dps options / rotations because "It'd be too hard for players" despite tanks having them. We heal about as much as tanks mitigate anymore

So in the downtime we have requested buffing / debuffing roles

Personally I have advocated for Protect / Shell / Faith / Bravery / Haste to appear etc etc. All Final Fantasy staples

And that heal on Shake it Off? Wtf was even the point of adding that? WAR was the last job they needed to add more healing to. I for one thoroughly enjoy WAR in its present state, but I cannot for the life of me figure out why that particular change seemed a good idea.

CBU3 added a poison to most AoE's this expansion and apparently they don't trust healers to do their jobs so tanks / DNC / SMN / RPR get to do it.

If Healers aren't DPS, and thus should not receive DPS abilities, then why isn't that logic applied to tanks as well? They get new DPS abilities every expansion and they aren't DPS. Why don't they just get an obligatory upgrade to their basic combo buttons and get 2 or 3 new defensive cooldowns instead?

Nah, give tanks: a single attack button that generates high aggro, a single dot that generates high aggro, a single aoe and 8-10 mitigations they'll hardly ever use. Let's see how long they last before they start quitting the role out of boredom.

[Supersnow845]

I'm sorry to burst this bubble people have talked about for like 8 years but when you say "healers need something to do during (alleged) downtime" can you be more specific? I see people say this all the time but never suggest anything. Perhaps because we all know there is nothing to do other than damage and fights barely have what would be classified as downtime..

In other words why not just say what you mean...healers should do top dps bc why exactly? They are not a DPS.

“Fights barely have any downtime”

You mean besides those minute+ periods where the boss stands around maybe occasionally slapping the tank or doing a godly simple mechanic, in casual content a boss like byregot literally does 2 instances of raidwide damage in 7 minutes, I have about 15 instances of raidwide healing in a 2 minute period and I don’t even have to drop damage for it, even in savage a 9 minute fight usually only has like 5 big mechanics then the rest of the time the boss is just standing there and maybe casts a raidwide

“You want healers to do top DPS”

No the amount of damage healers do is totally fine it’s how said damage is done that is boring as hell, either give us a more interesting way to do the amount of damage we are currently doing or give us something else to juggle like beneficial buffs or hindering debuffs for the boss

[Turtledeluxe]

“Fights barely have any downtime”

You mean besides those minute+ periods where the boss stands around maybe occasionally slapping the tank or doing a godly simple mechanic, in casual content a boss like byregot literally does 2 instances of raidwide damage in 7 minutes, I have about 15 instances of raidwide healing in a 2 minute period and I don’t even have to drop damage for it, even in savage a 9 minute fight usually only has like 5 big mechanics then the rest of the time the boss is just standing there and maybe casts a raidwide

“You want healers to do top DPS”

No the amount of damage healers do is totally fine it’s how said damage is done that is boring as hell, either give us a more interesting way to do the amount of damage we are currently doing or give us something else to juggle like beneficial buffs or hindering debuffs for the boss

I think this is fair. I don't play healers but I am interpreting this to mean you want some sort of mechanic (ie BLM Enochian or Reaper Enshroud) to spice up the rotation of WHM? On the other hand I would say I'm sure the devs are hesitant to give healers too much to do as it could actually get in the way of healing. So they would need to tread carefully as such.

Otherwise I would just say on the subject of downtime-- I don't really see when it isn't downtime if raidwide damage sequences are downtime. In terms of the majority of content (casual), for me as a BLM then, virtually everything is downtime except a handful of seconds I move around to avoid the current attack. That's all this game is. Wait around, push buttons, dodge attack, etc. Yes what you do in the midst of that cycle I suppose can seem meaningful, but the issues with the combat imo are larger than rotations. Things don't always do enough damage and boss encounters lack complexity.

Tanks aren't DPS either.

To expound on this comment, no tanks aren't DPS and I think warrior in particular is a bit problematic. But it's also the generic go to job and I can kind of see why they want it to be good at everything, for people who want that kind of experience. That said, if we go back to this subject of casual and midcore content-- it's not like bosses have any features like segmented parts (not phases or turns, I mean parts of them), some kind of weakness, stagger gauges etc. Tanks COULD have more responsibility other than popping shields a handful of times. Additionally imo the buff/debuff situation in this game is very undercooked and unsatisfying across the board-- because the game is so damage centric it feels like they are just there to be there. Basically this game is a zerg but with some dodging in between and we spend lots of time arguing how to make that zerging more fun when imo the issue with the game is much larger than any of that. And what I mean to say is how else can they improve the tank gameplay other than to buff it with their defensive element in the fights is so basic and routine (which an extension of the basic and routine encounters imo)?

Perhaps this is why simplifying every job, nerfing everything, etc caused so much ire? Not only because it seems counter intuitive but also because it exposes what's left of the combat once all of that is gone. WHM is complaining about the combat at the most basic level imo, not just their rotation. Which btw leads us back to the thread, why is 5% of such a big game engaging?

[Sani2341]

for me as a BLM then, virtually everything is downtime except a handful of seconds I move around to avoid the current attack.

I think you got mixed up there. As a BLM downtime for you would be the bits where you need to move and you can't do your primary job (dps).
For a Healer in a decently competent group, the only time they have to do their job (aka healing) is after raidwides. Esp. As overhealing does nothing to help the group defeat the Boss.

To try and paint you a picture of how healing downtime feels, imagine as a BLM a fight where you die if you stand still outside a handfull specific mechanics that last 1-3 GCDs. That's how much healing is usefull in EX trials and a lot of savage.
Sticking with the above example also might help illustrate the other part of the issue. Afaik, outside Triple Cast BLM has like 1 or 2 instant casts you'd be expected to spamm all of that hypothetical'we hate castbars fight'. That's about what healers have as well. A DoT a spell and some once a minute extra options. And outside AST with the card system, there's really nothing to any of that beyond sastasha level'watch the cast bar fill up again and again' casting mechanics. None of it interacts with each other, nor the Healing part of the kit.

[TheDustyOne]

I think this is fair. I don't play healers but I am interpreting this to mean you want some sort of mechanic (ie BLM Enochian or Reaper Enshroud) to spice up the rotation of WHM? On the other hand I would say I'm sure the devs are hesitant to give healers too much to do as it could actually get in the way of healing. So they would need to tread carefully as such.

Yes. The most WHM has for a burst phase is Presence of Mind, which has us spam Glare still, but now FASTER. Previous expansions gave us multiple DoTs on all healers, and nothing 30s long, so uptime was something to keep an eye on more often. This is what people are asking for when healers complain about DPS being boring, it's currently monotonous, homogenized, and extremely uninspired.

As for getting in the way of healing, well we have a bevy of oGCD heals that let us just not interrupt our damage as is, the only way it would interfere with healing is if they went back to 2.5s cast times and gave us no instant cast options. It all comes back to how well they design the job. And good healers would know when to stop DPSing and focus on healing when things are going south.

I'd personally like some interplay between our GCD heals and damage kit, so that they don't feel like they're "fighting each other" but instead feel complementary. But that's another discussion.

Otherwise I would just say on the subject of downtime-- I don't really see when it isn't downtime if raidwide damage sequences are downtime. In terms of the majority of content (casual), for me as a BLM then, virtually everything is downtime except a handful of seconds I move around to avoid the current attack. That's all this game is. Wait around, push buttons, dodge attack, etc. Yes what you do in the midst of that cycle I suppose can seem meaningful, but the issues with the combat imo are larger than rotations. Things don't always do enough damage and boss encounters lack complexity.

In the context of healers, downtime refers to moments where we don't need healing. The incoming damage is typically separated enough in content (especially casual content) that you can get by with an oGCD heal, and spam your singular nuke until the next time incoming damage happens, which has us press a heal oGCD between the nukes.

The reason people ask for more DPS options on healers, (and note options, not extra damage itself), is because increasing the healing requirements in fights also increases the skill floor in completing that fight. By giving extra DoTs, a gauge to track, buffs to give, or whatever, increases the ceiling of healers while only mildly impacting the floor for less skilled players.

[TheDustyOne]

I'm sorry to burst this bubble people have talked about for like 8 years but when you say "healers need something to do during (alleged) downtime" can you be more specific? I see people say this all the time but never suggest anything. Perhaps because we all know there is nothing to do other than damage and fights barely have what would be classified as downtime..

Downtime (in regards to healers) refers to time where healing isn't required, whether it be from everyone being full, or there's no incoming damage where you can let auto-regen take care of the work. Those moments are where we spam Glare

In other words why not just say what you mean...healers should do top dps bc why exactly? They are not a DPS.

Because that's a strawman of your own making. Healers don't care about being top DPS, they care about ENGAGING DPS. Square could increase the DPS button count on healers to 5, 10, 500, and alter potencies to be 1/4 of our current damage and people asking for engaging healer DPS would be satisfied.

Attack the actual arguments being made, not the one you think is being made.

[Sebazy]

I'm sorry to burst this bubble people have talked about for like 8 years but when you say "healers need something to do during (alleged) downtime" can you be more specific? I see people say this all the time but never suggest anything. Perhaps because we all know there is nothing to do other than damage and fights barely have what would be classified as downtime..

(alleged)
fights barely have what would be classified as downtime..



Nothing alleged about it sir. That's 2 AoEs in total in a 4:30 fight, one of which is the very first mechanic (like it always is).

In other words why not just say what you mean...healers should do top dps bc why exactly? They are not a DPS.

You realise that actual numerical healer DPS is the lowest it's ever been comparative to the rest of the group right? Do you see anyone complaining about the amount of damage we do?

I don't think you do.

What we are complaining about is the MANNER in which we do it.

Smashing 1 button endlessly for minutes at a time isn't fun, nor is it engaging.

How about you put your sorry little main character complex down for just a second and consider just how effing boring fights like the above get for a healer when there is LITERALLY NOTHING TO HEAL for ACTUAL MINUTES AT A TIME.

Lets have a fight that forces melee to disconnect and sit in the corner for several minutes because there are only there to carry me to the end credits amirite? Wait no, that's utterly stupid.