Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[ForteNightshade]

That explains it a bit. Still, I'm not going to be surprised if we see some nerfs to healing actions over this. SE tends to overcorrect on things...like how they disliked how WARs could cheese multiple mechanics in Asphodelos, so they made it near impossible to cheese anything in Abyssos.

To be honest, I think they should, especially in AoE settings. Bloodwhetting gets comically overrated around here due to its absurdity in dungeons but even it's still ridiculous how much healing you can do as a tank nowadays. It wouldn't be a problem if the fights justified it. As a tank, I like the idea of being able to keep myself alive but it should feel necessary not a way to invalidate healers. Sure, Bloodwhetting or Corundum isn't going to save you from Hephaistos' double autos but it does make it so a single Tetra or Druochloe will be more than enough.

All in all, it's a combination of things. Tanks have far too much self sustain, healers have far too many oGCDs and bosses aren't doing enough damage. Everything should be looked at come 7.0.

[grinkdaboy]

my favorite part about abyssos was that healers complained about having nothing to do and then screeched "AAAAIIIIEEEEE NO NOT LIKE THIS" when they had to do p5s, p7s, and p8s

[ty_taurus]

my favorite part about abyssos was that healers complained about having nothing to do and then screeched "AAAAIIIIEEEEE NO NOT LIKE THIS" when they had to do p5s, p7s, and p8s

Thing is, it's most likely that the players who have been complaining about healers not having anything to do, and the people who couldn't handle P5S-P8S healing requirements were not the same people.

[ty_taurus]

Sorry to double post, but the full clear was published (it just popped up on my recommended).

Here's the link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k65bhdogQKw

[ForteNightshade]

Thing is, it's most likely that the players who have been complaining about healers not having anything to do, and the people who couldn't handle P5S-P8S healing requirements were not the same people.

Not to mention just the initial shock of higher outgoing damage and everyone being in crafted gear. I think the latter is often overlooked. People coming from Asphodelos may have only raided that tier, and with a padded ilvl if they got into it later on.

As someone who healed all but P8 this tier. Carbuncle got to a point where I wasn't even using Benediction more than once because I never actually needed to. Hegemone and Agdistis both had tanks solo-ing their shared busters.

[GaiusDrakon]

my favorite part about abyssos was that healers complained about having nothing to do and then screeched "AAAAIIIIEEEEE NO NOT LIKE THIS" when they had to do p5s, p7s, and p8s

ShB and EW babies never did O4S and O8S when relevant. Half of the newbies will get a panic attack at White Hole and Heartless Archangel.

[Tsumdere]

It's ridiculous how much they are coddling the healer role. They've been hand holding healers and stripping them down to nothing to the point they aren't even needed anymore if your team is good enough.
And yes, the players who cleared TOP with no healers are VERY good and chose a specific comp to achieve it, but if the hardest content in the game can be cleared without healers... what does that say about lower end content?

You can clear dungeons very easily with no healers. Just need average players. You can clear EXs with no healers with good players. You can clear Savages with no healers with great players. Now you can clear ON PATCH ultimates with excellent players.

I think by making healers easier and reducing responsibility, they are doing the opposite of what they want and slowly whittling down the healer playerbase to nothing. Savage players already know how hard it is to find healers to join groups. It will only continue to get harder.

[Renathras]

It's ridiculous how much they are coddling the healer role. They've been hand holding healers and stripping them down to nothing to the point they aren't even needed anymore if your team is good enough.

I think it's the opposite problem: They want Tanks and DPSers to feel powerful, so they make them so self-sufficient that they don't need healing. It's a meme at this point that WAR is a Healer, but consider how many people play WAR because they like feeling like unstopable war gods in 4 mans. Like, it's a legitimately appealing playstyle to people to feel invincible.

The problem is, if Tanks and DPS are invincible and unkillable if they use their healing/sustain/mitigation buttons, it means that you don't need Healers.

It's like how in Ex5, there has been a clear with 1 Healer + 7 DPS (no Tanks) because everyone can survive the "Tank" damage, rendering Tanks unnecessary.

The irony is that the game is shifting towards "mitgation" instead of healing...but then giving mitigation tools to DPS (and Tanks) instead of to Healers, despite Healers being the original masters of that role (SCH in ARR)

.

EDIT:

That explains it a bit. Still, I'm not going to be surprised if we see some nerfs to healing actions over this. SE tends to overcorrect on things...like how they disliked how WARs could cheese multiple mechanics in Asphodelos, so they made it near impossible to cheese anything in Abyssos.

With no sarcasm or schadenfreude at all, I genuinely hope they make the healing checks in the next Ultimate so hard that people are taking 3 Healers during prog just to get to the next phases. Make the DPS checks lenient but the Healing required insane. I'm tired of the game being based/balanced entirely around Ultimate/Savage, but if people REALLY want some content where Healers aren't able to handle it, people quit, groups break up, etc etc - that sounds terrible to me, but it sounds like what some people want - then Ultimate would be the place to do it, and I hope they do it.

The rest of the game can be for normal folks, Ultimates can be for people that want to spend weeks looking for a replacement Healer. I'm 100% for that at this point.

[Sebazy]

my favorite part about abyssos was that healers complained about having nothing to do and then screeched "AAAAIIIIEEEEE NO NOT LIKE THIS" when they had to do p5s, p7s, and p8s

Have you considered that they might not be the same crowd?

We've had big healer checks before, Godka was great to heal and you didn't see much whining about it back then at least not to my memory.

So what's changed? Well if I look at my own FC (Entropy, multiple world firsts in Ultimate and Savage) and my group which is a bit of a retirement home within the FC, it's pretty clear at least within my circle. All the healers burnt out over the course of Shadowbringers. I was lucky to play alongside some of the best healers in Europe and now they are pretty much all gone.

I'd wonder how many of those healers struggling with this tier were around for Coil/Alex/Omega?

With no sarcasm or schadenfreude at all, I genuinely hope they make the healing checks in the next Ultimate so hard that people are taking 3 Healers during prog just to get to the next phases. Make the DPS checks lenient but the Healing required insane.

The problem is that they arguably couldn't do this if they tried. Or rather they could, but they'd need to really rewrite the rulebook on a lot of things.

Our kits are just too strong relative to our overall HP pool/survivability and the accepted pace of typical Savage/Ultimate mechanics which are generally more puzzles than outright damage/hps tests these days.

The only way I can see it working is if they throw a huge HP buff on us and turn it into an attrition fight whilst also throwing in some retro Allagan Rot style mechanic to keep the group sufficiently spread out requiring triage style whackamole single target heals rather than just deleting the bad with Asylum/Soil. Personally, I'd actually quite like that, but I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for SE to be bold enough to actually try it as things stand.

Also you do realise that TOP is already the content where people aren't able to handle it and quit, groups break up, etc etc right?

[Rehayem]

It's ridiculous how much they are coddling the healer role. They've been hand holding healers and stripping them down to nothing to the point they aren't even needed anymore if your team is good enough.
And yes, the players who cleared TOP with no healers are VERY good and chose a specific comp to achieve it, but if the hardest content in the game can be cleared without healers... what does that say about lower end content?

You can clear dungeons very easily with no healers. Just need average players. You can clear EXs with no healers with good players. You can clear Savages with no healers with great players. Now you can clear ON PATCH ultimates with excellent players.

I think by making healers easier and reducing responsibility, they are doing the opposite of what they want and slowly whittling down the healer playerbase to nothing. Savage players already know how hard it is to find healers to join groups. It will only continue to get harder.

There's a reason why I stopped playing healer. It puts me to sleep, it's mind numbing pressing 1 dps button for 20 minutes. They might as well just remove healers completely and make them dps lol